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1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
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COMMISSION MEETING
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DATE: January 13, 1998
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TIME: Commenced at 8:30 a.m.
11 Concluded at 6:15 p.m.
12 PLACE: The Senate Chamber
The Capitol
13 Tallahassee, Florida
14 REPORTED BY: KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
JULIE L. DOHERTY, RPR
15 MONA L. WHIDDON
Court Reporters
16 Division of Administrative Hearings
The DeSoto Building
17 1230 Apalachee Parkway
Tallahassee, Florida
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1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ (PM SESSION ONLY)
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
PAT BARTON
6 ROBERT M. BROCHIN
THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
7 KEN CONNOR
CHRIS CORR (ABSENT)
8 SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW (PM SESSION ONLY)
VALERIE EVANS
9 MARILYN EVANS-JONES
BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
10 ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
PAUL HAWKES (AM SESSION ONLY)
11 WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS (ABSENT)
12 THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
DICK LANGLEY (ABSENT)
13 JOHN F. LOWNDES
STANLEY MARSHALL (PM SESSION ONLY)
14 JACINTA MATHIS
JON LESTER MILLS
15 FRANK MORSANI
ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
16 CARLOS PLANAS
JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
17 KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
SENATOR JIM SCOTT (PM SESSION ONLY)
18 H. T. SMITH
ALAN C. SUNDBERG (ABSENT)
19 JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON (PM SESSION ONLY)
PAUL WEST
20 JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON (ABSENT)
STEPHEN NEAL ZACK (PM SESSION ONLY)
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IRA H. LEESFIELD (PM SESSION ONLY)
22 LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN
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1 PROCEEDINGS
2 COMMISSION SECRETARY: All commissioners please
3 indicate your presence. All commissioners indicate your
4 presence.
5 All unauthorized visitors, please leave the chamber.
6 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
7 commissioners indicate your presence.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Will everybody please take your
9 seats, please? Let's come to order, please. Take your
10 seats, please. Commissioner Barkdull, I'll call on you in
11 just a moment. All unauthorized people will leave the
12 chamber. And can we have a quorum?
13 COMMISSION SECRETARY: Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.
14 (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Would you all rise for the
16 opening prayer given this morning by Reverend Robert
17 Shelley, pastor of the Christian Heritage Church in
18 Tallahassee. Reverend Shelley.
19 REVEREND SHELLEY: I would like to pray with you the
20 petition of Micah 6:8. He has showed you, O man, what is
21 good and, what the Lord requires of you, but to do justly,
22 to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
23 Our Father God, you have shown us down through the
24 millenniums by your revelation of knowledge what you
25 desire from man. So we would pray this morning that the
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1 same revelation of knowledge that has been a part of our
2 heritage move and touch and impress each mind, each heart
3 that is here. That each law that is being considered,
4 each word might be considered with justice. It would be
5 equitable and fair to all men. And, Lord, we would pray
6 also that each one of us would love mercy, that compassion
7 would touch our heart today as we consider the
8 far-reaching effect of each decision. And Lord, that we
9 might walk humbly before you, that we might lean upon
10 your strength, upon your wisdom and your knowledge as we
11 contemplate this very important agenda. We ask this in
12 the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Remain standing, please.
14 Commissioner Nabors, would you come forward and lead us in
15 the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. You can come up
16 here.
17 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, good morning. I think not
19 everybody hasn't quite made it yet, but we do have a
20 substantial quorum. This should be a very short meeting,
21 I think. Commissioner Barkdull, am I right?
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir. We are going to be
23 meeting in committee in about 20 minutes.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is there any business that we
25 need to take up or do we defer to the afternoon sessions?
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1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I think everything should be
2 deferred. But we have announcements.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Proceed.
4 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: First, you have an orange
5 packet that we worked off of yesterday. Those that we
6 didn't reach yesterday are on special order today and
7 should be reached today. Following that, we have a
8 supplement to the special order calendar, which is in
9 blue. When we exhausted the orange calendar, we will
10 revert to the blue one.
11 You are also to be reminded that the judicial and
12 bonding and investment committee meetings for this
13 afternoon have been canceled. We have committee meetings
14 tomorrow in the afternoon, and that is the reverse of what
15 the original block schedule showed, but it was a
16 supplemental schedule, it was sent out last week and it
17 was on your desk yesterday, and it is shown on a block
18 schedule on the front of your calendar today.
19 There will be a rules and calendar meeting at 6:00
20 this afternoon in Room 309. I want to remind the
21 Declaration of Rights Committee that the Proposal No. 17
22 by Riley was recommitted to that committee yesterday
23 afternoon. The -- also some members have indicated that
24 they plan to withdraw proposals and they will be able to
25 do that at -- either now or at the conclusion of today's
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1 meeting, so bear that in mind.
2 Mr. Chairman, that concludes any announcements that I
3 have at this time.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does anybody else
5 have any announcements? The matter on reconsideration
6 will be taken up this afternoon; is that correct?
7 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. And other matters on
9 reconsideration can be raised any time during the day?
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: From yesterday's package?
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody else have any other
14 announcements, Ms. Secretary? I'm reminded by the
15 Secretary that we need to adopt the proposed special
16 order. Without objection, the proposed special order will
17 be adopted. Commissioner Barkdull doesn't think we have
18 to do that, but we'll do it anyway. Commissioner Rundle?
19 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Mr. Chairman, at this time I
20 would like to withdraw Proposal 81.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What is that?
22 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: That has to do with signature
23 verification and absentee ballot.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Without objection,
25 Proposal 81 will be withdrawn. You have to have more
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1 strict scrutiny of absentee ballots, I understand?
2 (Off-the-record comment.)
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Presently, you are doing just
4 that, right? Commissioner Barnett?
5 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: It's my understanding that the
6 proposed special order calendar includes a proposal by
7 Commissioner Brochin and one by me. The one I have is 144
8 dealing with punishment, and I think his deals with the
9 death penalty. We had talked with Commissioner Barkdull
10 about our need to have that mater deferred to the next
11 time the Commission meets. And so if that's on the
12 agenda, I would really like to request that that be done.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Both of them?
14 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Yes. I don't know where --
15 there he is.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Are these in committee?
17 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: No.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: They are on special order. Well,
19 I prepared an amendment to the death penalty provision
20 that I intend to offer. I'm prepared to do it whenever it
21 comes up. But just so you will know, Commissioner Brochin
22 and Barnett, I proposed to offer an amendment that would
23 provide that the capital punishment shall be, when there
24 is a finding of sufficient first degree murder or other
25 capital offenses, if there are any, that the jury shall
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1 have the alternative to sentence to death, upon a
2 unanimous vote, and upon a majority vote, may sentence in
3 the alternative, life imprisonment and solitary
4 confinement without parole.
5 And the third alternative would be -- and that would
6 be my majority vote. And the third alternative would be
7 life in prison, period. And that would be my majority
8 vote. I plan to offer that as an amendment to
9 Commissioner Brochin's proposal, original proposal, which
10 was that it took a unanimous vote for the death penalty,
11 and it was changed, I believe, in the committee from nine
12 to three; is that correct? And I'm going to offer that
13 amendment, so everybody can be getting their thoughts
14 together on it.
15 Recognizing that the federal system already provides
16 for life imprisonment and solitary confinement is one of
17 the alternatives there, and that presently there's several
18 hundred prisoners in the federal system that are in
19 solitary confinement because of incorrigible activity.
20 And I won't argue the point, but I want you-all to be
21 aware of that. I'm ready to go this week or next week or
22 whenever you want it on special order.
23 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Thank you. I think it is
24 going to promise to be an interesting discussion. And in
25 order to make it more interesting, we would just like a
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1 little more time to talk amongst our commissioners about
2 it.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. I didn't want to be
4 misleading any of you that that was on there. You are
5 deferring them from today's special order; is that
6 correct? Is that the request, Commissioner Barkdull?
7 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: No, the request is that it be
8 deferred until our next meeting in January.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. What does the Rules
10 Committee say on that?
11 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: The Rules Committee hasn't
12 met and specifically taken it up. I have indicated that
13 we would like to get to it as soon as possible. We would
14 certainly defer to the wishes of the commission and we
15 will schedule it for -- I would recommend that the Rules
16 Committee be scheduled for the next meeting in January.
17 But I would suggest that it will not be deferred beyond
18 that.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Would it be more appropriate if
20 we waited? Is the Rules Committee going to meet before we
21 meet this afternoon?
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: No, it's going to meet at the
23 end of the afternoon session, but we can make a report
24 tomorrow.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett?
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1 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Whatever the will of the
2 commission is, Mr. Chairman. I just simply, when you
3 approve the special order calendar, I wanted to make sure
4 that you and the other commissioners knew that if you
5 can't accomplish it now, at the appropriate time, we'll
6 move to temporarily pass it until the next meeting of the
7 commission, a date certain.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'll treat that as a motion to
9 remove it from the special order for today and it will not
10 be returned to the special order until it's recommended by
11 the Rules Committee. Without objection, that will be
12 the -- Commissioner Evans, you have to let me know over
13 there. I see out of my right eye pretty well but it's
14 dark over there.
15 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay. I object because we have
16 been noticed that this issue is up. I would prefer that
17 discussion amongst commission members be in the sunshine
18 rather than behind closed doors. We have fully discussed
19 it in committee; it's ready. We come to Tallahassee a
20 great deal of the time. We have got this whole week -- we
21 have got quite a few days at the end of January, two weeks
22 in February. I think that we need to get on with our
23 business and stop putting issues off so that we can get
24 our ducks together a little bit better.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We'll treat that as
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1 an objection to the motion Commissioner Barnett previously
2 stated, and we'll vote on it.
3 All of those in favor of the motion, say aye.
4 Opposed.
5 (Verbal vote taken.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is a two-thirds vote and it
7 does carry. It is a majority, it does carry, and it is so
8 done. Any further items? Commissioner Freidin?
9 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I
10 would like, at this time, like to withdraw Proposal
11 No. 88, increasing the length of the regular legislative
12 session and including a mandatory recess.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection that will be
14 withdrawn. Are there other -- Commissioner Anthony?
15 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to
16 remove the item Proposal 52.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What is that? Tell us what it
18 is.
19 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: Oh, proposal, payment of ad
20 valorem taxes on the first half of 50,000.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
22 understand the motion; which is to withdraw Proposal 52?
23 Without objection, it is withdrawn. Just a moment,
24 Commissioner Alfonso. That wasn't an objection, is that
25 correct? All right. Commissioner Alfonso? It is
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1 withdrawn.
2 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: I would like to withdraw
3 Proposal No. 176. This proposal was originally introduced
4 to deal with some of the aspects of Cabinet reform that we
5 are dealing with in the executive, and now all aspects of
6 this proposal have been addressed and other proposals that
7 we are dealing with and it is no longer necessary for us.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, Proposal 176
9 is withdrawn. We are moving right along today. Has
10 anybody got anything else? Okay. I would like to say
11 that Commissioner Morsani stands among us in vain this
12 morning, he was the only one that got singled out for his
13 vote yesterday when he was the only one that voted for one
14 thing.
15 Commissioner Planas assured him that we needed at
16 least one negative vote. All of you are working very
17 hard, and I think now we can go and finish our committee
18 work. I would entertain a motion that we adjourn.
19 Commissioner Barkdull?
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I would move that we recess
21 until the hour of 1:00 p.m. today.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is so done without objection.
23 (Session recessed at 9:00 a.m., to be continued at
24 1:00 p.m.)
25 SECRETARY BLANTON: All commissioners indicate your
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1 presence. All commissioners indicate your presence.
2 Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.
3 (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Come to order.
5 Please take your seats. Clear the gallery. Come to
6 order -- not the gallery, clear the floor. Those who were
7 not here to indicate their presence, be sure the secretary
8 knows you are present.
9 Commissioner Barkdull? Chairman of rules.
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman and members of
11 the commission, you have the special order for this
12 afternoon before you. There will be, as we proceed,
13 certain items that will be temporarily passed or would be
14 requested to be temporarily passed and I'll explain those
15 as we get to them. I would ask for the consideration of
16 the commission.
17 I had a request from one chairman of one of the
18 committees that the time for consideration of proposals
19 before that committee be extended through a meeting that
20 will be scheduled for 6:15 on Thursday evening. And at
21 this time, I move you, sir, that the Declaration of Rights
22 Committee have until the conclusion of the meeting
23 scheduled for 6:15 Thursday on evening to complete its
24 work.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Without objection,
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1 the motion passes unanimously. Are you going to have
2 everybody here, Commissioner Smith, do you think, for that
3 meeting?
4 COMMISSIONER SMITH: We expect to have everyone
5 except Commissioner Barton who has advised me that she
6 won't be here. She's an alternate who doesn't vote but --
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Would everybody who was there
8 today concur to this time and that you needed that; is
9 that what you told me I think?
10 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right, sir. Then that will
12 be scheduled then for 6:15 for the Declaration of Rights
13 to conclude their work. Commissioner Barkdull?
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, I was the
15 sponsor of Proposal No. 122 which related to automatic
16 restoration of civil rights. After Commissioner Thompson
17 enlightened me this morning, I would like to withdraw that
18 proposal.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Without objection
20 it's withdrawn upon the enlightenment of Commissioner
21 Thompson. We have on special order a matter on
22 reconsideration. I'd like to pass that until everybody is
23 here. The person that moved it has not -- oh, you're here
24 now. How many do we have present, Madam Secretary?
25 (Off-the-record comment.)
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1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The reason I ask that is
2 Commissioner Rundle isn't here and she's involved in this.
3 We'll pass this without objection until either later today
4 or perhaps tomorrow for consideration. Welcome to
5 Commissioner Argiz who's joined us since this morning.
6 Also Commissioner Mathis is here though she has not
7 arrived in the chamber. And they were unable and were
8 excused from the previous meetings.
9 Commissioner Planas, you rise?
10 COMMISSIONER PLANAS: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You're recognized.
12 COMMISSIONER PLANAS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
13 want to withdraw Proposal No. 98, that is a different
14 language, that's not legislative terms. I'd like to
15 withdraw it. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Without objection,
17 Proposal No. 98 is withdrawn.
18 Commissioner Riley?
19 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to also
20 withdraw Proposal No. 3 on the assessment of fees if
21 acquitted.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, Proposal No. 3
23 is withdrawn.
24 Commissioner Anthony?
25 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: I'd like to withdraw Proposal
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1 No. 100, the creation, slash, abolishment of
2 municipalities.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, Proposal
4 No. 100 is withdrawn.
5 Commissioner Henderson?
6 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Without objection, I would
7 like to request withdrawal of Proposal 136 relating to
8 redevelopment and in-fill.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, Proposal 136
10 is withdrawn. Any further commissioners --
11 Commissioner Ford-Coates?
12 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: After the withdrawal of
13 Proposal 100 by Commissioner Anthony, and yesterday
14 Commissioner Nabors withdrew Proposal 92, those two
15 proposals were the only agenda items for the Local
16 Government Committee. And with that, the Local Government
17 Committee has passed on all of the proposals referred to
18 it. I assume that means the local government is working
19 quite well these days because it is closest to the people.
20 So that committee meeting will be cancelled for tomorrow.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Very well. Everybody involved
22 then is aware of that cancellation now. Anybody who's not
23 here, Commissioner Ford-Coates, you can let them know.
24 Commissioner Barkdull?
25 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: We'll also make an
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1 announcement tomorrow morning that that's cancelled.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Correct. All right. Is there
3 anything further before we start on the special order?
4 And we're back to the first item on the special order
5 which is Proposal No. 60. Would you read it, please? We
6 have a new reader today.
7 READING CLERK: Proposal 60 by Commissioner Langley,
8 Article V, Section 2 Florida Constitution; providing for
9 the cross assignment of judges.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Langley
11 is not here. Does anybody care to present this? Are
12 there any proponents? Are there any opponents? Does
13 anybody want to get up and explain what it does? There we
14 go. Commissioner Kogan?
15 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: All right. It has been the
16 practice of chief judges around the state following their
17 right under the Constitution to reassign certain judges
18 that are under authority, particularly in this instance,
19 county court judges to do circuit court work. What
20 happened was in one of our counties, and if I recall
21 correctly I believe it's Palm Beach County, some of the
22 judges were assigned to temporary duty and that's the way
23 the Constitution now reads, temporary duty for a six-month
24 period, time after time after time, where some of them
25 actually served three and four years in a temporary
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1 capacity in six-month increments. And that case came to
2 us for a decision as to what was temporary and the Court
3 felt that serving three or four years as a county court
4 judge doing circuit court work was not temporary. So we
5 stopped them from doing that.
6 This is an effort to allow the judges, to the chief
7 judges to go ahead and use the county court judges again
8 but this time the word "temporary" is stricken. You know,
9 I'm not speaking for or against this, but the major
10 argument that I've heard for this is that there are some
11 county court judges, and I know this from my own personal
12 experience, who are very, very capable and able to do
13 circuit court work. And for example we've got a county
14 judge in Dade County who's been doing circuit court work
15 now for many, many years and he's even retired on top of
16 it. And he's perfectly able to do the work that he's
17 doing. This is a plus side.
18 The negative side that I've heard is, Look, you know,
19 we elect these judges, you know, to be either circuit
20 court judges or county court judges and a lot of people
21 will tell you, especially those who have been on judicial
22 nominating commissions, that many times we put nominations
23 forward for young attorneys that we feel will make good
24 county court judges but we feel they may need the
25 seasoning or they may never really be ready for circuit
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1 court work. And the problem arises when these particular
2 county court judges get assigned to do circuit court work.
3 Now these are the pro and con arguments that I've
4 heard. I'm not taking a position on this. I've seen
5 situations where the county judges sitting as circuit
6 judges, in fact, really helped the system and really
7 helped us move cases along. Now, perhaps Commissioner
8 Barkdull, from his experience, may be able to add to that.
9 But those are just my observations.
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Would the gentleman yield?
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Commissioner Kogan, in your
13 explanation something arose that I had not considered
14 really in reference to this. Is not the fact that you
15 have the ability to assign county judges to circuit level
16 particularly important in smaller counties where you only
17 may have one or two county judges and no resident circuit
18 judge?
19 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: Yes, this is very important and
20 used for that purpose. And that is, you know, you don't
21 really want your circuit judges really riding the circuit
22 like they used to and have to travel many, many miles. If
23 you have an emergency situation on the circuit court
24 level, you don't want to have the litigants go several
25 counties over to where the circuit judge may be sitting or
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1 wait for the circuit judge to come there. So it's
2 convenient because you always have in every county at
3 least one county court judge --
4 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: My recollection now from
5 testimony before the Article V task force is you've got
6 two county judges east of here and some of the rural
7 counties almost as county judges are riding the circuit as
8 acting circuit judges. Would the failure to pass this
9 prevent, obviously, in those situations where you're
10 limited a number of county judges and limited circuit
11 judges not resident in the county? This six-months'
12 limitation must give you a problem in reappointing them to
13 those duties.
14 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: It does give you a problem.
15 Unfortunately, the problem arose in one of the more
16 populist counties, Palm Beach County. We haven't had, to
17 my recollection, a case coming out of the
18 sparsely-populated areas. And I don't know whether or not
19 the court, had it been a sparsely-populated area, might
20 not have ruled the other way. The way it is now, we've
21 ruled that the word "temporary" means that 3« to 4 years
22 assigned consistently as a circuit judge even though your
23 county court judge is not temporary.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Butterworth?
25 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: If Commissioner Kogan
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1 would yield for a question.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
3 (Off-the-record comment.)
4 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: Remember, I didn't pose this.
5 I'm just trying to explain what it is and give you the
6 arguments on both sides.
7 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Well, you're a good
8 sounding board on some of these questions, just bouncing
9 off of what Commissioner Barkdull stated. Let's say in
10 the larger counties, what happens when a number of the
11 county judges that finish their calendars and they're
12 available to take, perhaps, some of the circuit work but
13 not be assigned permanently but just maybe an hour or two
14 hours it takes to be a backup judge for a circuit court
15 judge --
16 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: That's no problem at all. Even
17 when it reads "temporary," that's a temporary assignment.
18 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: But everyday must a chief
19 judge do that every single time or can he just -- will
20 this allow a chief judge to identify three, four, five,
21 six, seven county court judges, whatever, to where those
22 judges would in essence be available at all times to be
23 able to --
24 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: You can do that now because
25 that's a temporary assignment. The case we had
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1 unfortunately dealt with judges who were sitting full time
2 as circuit judges even though they were county judges for
3 a period of 3« to four years. We just said that's not
4 temporary.
5 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Mr. Chairman, my situation
6 as a county judge and circuit judge, having the
7 opportunity to serve as county judge, but a circuit judge
8 in juvenile bench literally would be on vacation quite
9 often and travelling throughout the country insofar as
10 various juvenile justice matters. So I found myself being
11 able to be assigned. I was doing both dockets. And I'm
12 kind of wondering if we have situations like that in the
13 state, we may have it in the rural areas, where I believe
14 there is nothing wrong with passing this measure and we
15 might correct some problems that exist. So there is no
16 harm for doing this.
17 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: The only argument that I've
18 heard in opposition to this is that we have voted for
19 county judges, we want them to do county court work. We
20 voted for circuit court judges, we want them to do circuit
21 court work. And there aren't people who object to the
22 fact that county judges are doing circuit work. The
23 feeling is that the circuit judges sit it in a higher
24 court and are more qualified to do that work than the
25 county judges. That's the argument I've heard on the
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1 other side.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, Commissioner Henderson.
3 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to
4 rise in support of the proposal. I don't have a dog in
5 this hunt but some of you may know that my wife is chief
6 administrative judge, county judge, in Volusia. And so
7 there's a big county issue too that I'm familiar with.
8 She is the only sitting county judge in basically a
9 quarter area of the county. If you look, here's a big
10 county, 750,000 acres and here's one county judge, the
11 only judge sitting in this one portion of the county.
12 Now, there are two ways to do this. There is the
13 strict construction of this language, which is temporary,
14 and it would mean that anytime you had an emergency
15 situation dealing with spouse abuse that they would have
16 to go track down a circuit judge somewhere else in the
17 county. But because of the way this works, she is serving
18 as a counterpart in the western part of the county,
19 another county judge, who has the authority to enter
20 injunctions for the protection of spouses who are in
21 danger. And I can tell you that that is a matter of
22 judicial economy. It's a system of helping the victims
23 and it works.
24 And I know at home over Christmas, on three times on
25 Christmas day, a deputy came by to have injunctions
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1 entered. The same thing happened New Year's Day. So
2 there is a great economy for the process to be able to
3 have a county judge in an area where there is not a
4 sitting circuit judge to be able to take care of some of
5 these matters.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor?
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Question, if I may, of the
8 commissioner.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
10 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Commissioner Henderson, I'd
11 like to understand what the prejudice is that is suffered
12 from the ability to make temporary assignments in
13 instances in which you just suggested, for example, I can
14 envision that a court could well assign a county judge to
15 temporarily serve as to take care of the duties you asked.
16 And I ask this for this reason. We have historically had
17 a two-tiered system. We have a system of county judges
18 who are appointed -- who are designated to serve in the
19 county courts, courts of limited jurisdiction.
20 We have circuit judges who serve in our circuit
21 courts. And it seems to me that under the current regime,
22 that a provision is made for temporary assignments in
23 instances where it's necessary to accomplish the very
24 kinds of concerns that you raise. And yet the effect of
25 this proposed amendment would be, I think, in many
25
1 respects to do what cannot now be directly done and which
2 many do feel would circumvent the system.
3 So I ask you what is the prejudice that can't be
4 cured through the temporary assignment process and I
5 understood what the judge had to say -- what Commissioner
6 Kogan had to say, but I wasn't sure I appreciated the
7 significance of the prejudice. I've tried cases in
8 federal courts by consent with federal magistrates rather
9 than Article III judges. I've had county judges by
10 consent handle circuit court matters. But is this an
11 entree that would only wind up altering our system,
12 eliminating the distinctions between county and circuit
13 judges and can the requirements of the administration of
14 justice not be met through the utilization of temporary
15 assignments?
16 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I think that's a very good
17 question. And I think the answer in the case I'm familiar
18 with, this is the case in south Florida, it's been a
19 temporary assignment for more than a couple of years. So
20 how long is temporary? And I think the same is true with
21 the other part of the county where you have county judges
22 sitting in an area for some time. And so as a result of a
23 decision Commissioner Kogan mentioned, they know that
24 they're not on as solid ground as they used to be.
25 The other opportunities to provide a unified court
26
1 system before this body, it did not come forward. I don't
2 think there is support for it. I don't see this as an
3 erosion of that. I see it as judicial economy. I
4 remember it as a practicing attorney in a small town that
5 was isolated from the rest of the court system.
6 It was nice to be able to have a judge locally that
7 you could go and deal with and not have to track down in
8 the rest of the circuit and I think that has a lot to do
9 with the cost to litigants as well.
10 I'm also sensitive to the issue raised by
11 Commissioner Butterworth. We often have a lot of waste in
12 the system because of the way that the dockets are set,
13 the agendas are set for extended periods of time. There
14 will be times when judges and courtrooms sit empty when
15 other litigants need to have their day in court. And so
16 if this helps that, I think we've given some improvement
17 to the system.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor?
19 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: One further question, if I may,
20 in that regard.
21 (Off-the-record comment.)
22 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: You were the last one up.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You married into it from my
24 understanding of what you said. We're not ruling that's a
25 conflict because we know you don't do what your wife tells
27
1 you to do.
2 (Laughter.)
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: When those assignments take
4 place then, does that judge have jurisdiction regardless
5 of the consent of the parties or the consent of the
6 parties' lawyers? In other words, if a county judge is
7 assigned temporarily or for an unlimited period, does that
8 mean the litigants and the lawyers are stuck with that
9 judge, if you will, and I don't mean that in a negative
10 sense, but are they required to have that county judge or
11 is it by consent of the parties and lawyers involved?
12 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman and
13 commissioners, I think there are people in this chamber
14 that are smarter than me to answer that question. And
15 maybe I should punt that to, perhaps, Commissioner Kogan.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You can punt it to Commissioner
17 Barkdull because this was discussed in detail on the
18 Article V Revision Commission.
19 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: All right. Actually, the
20 authority is in the hands of the chief justice to make the
21 assignments. But the amendment gives me, the chief
22 justice, the authority to delegate his or her authority to
23 the chief judges. All the chief judges, rather all the
24 chief justices that I know of, including myself, have
25 delegated this authority to the chief judges of the
28
1 circuit.
2 Now, theoretically, I could as chief justice stop
3 every one of these assignments just by revoking the
4 authority that I've given to the chief judges of each
5 circuit to make these assignments. So if somebody would
6 call my attention, for example, to the fact that some
7 county court judge has been sitting an inordinate amount
8 of time, you know, even under the amendment, even if you
9 took out the word "temporary," I could still say, you
10 know, That judge is a county judge and that judge has been
11 there a long time and after all, a county judge is
12 supposed to do county judge work and circuit judges do
13 circuit judge work, and revoke my chief judge's authority
14 to appoint a county judge to sit as a circuit court judge.
15 So it's not an unbridled authority. The chief justice --
16 what's that?
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think Commissioner -- I've got
18 three here competing. I think you were first.
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, this is perhaps a
20 question -- perhaps a statement. I was going to ask
21 Commissioner Morsani to take the floor and ask the
22 question, but I won't do that yet. It seems to me that
23 the cross assignment is probably a necessary
24 administrative function that makes sense and I haven't
25 understood why it's not working adequately now. But the
29
1 thing that struck me, as thinking of this from the
2 legislative perspective and the funding perspective, do we
3 in an Article V sense, when we go to the Legislature to
4 ask them to fund circuit judges and fund county judges,
5 diminish our capacity to really show the need?
6 In other words, where we're using county judges to do
7 circuit work, isn't what we really need to make the case
8 if we have that kind of caseload for an increased number
9 of circuit judges because I take the point that you have
10 people who are doing a job which isn't precisely their job
11 description doesn't mean they are not capable, it doesn't
12 mean they are not doing a good job. But if we don't have
13 enough people on the circuit bench, why don't we ask the
14 Legislature to do that? And if it's the failure of the
15 Legislature to do that, then it should be pointed out.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Thompson -- wait a
17 minute. I think Commissioner Zack had risen. I'll get to
18 you in just a moment.
19 Commissioner Zack.
20 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Commissioner Kogan yield for
21 another question?
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You need to use your microphone.
23 COMMISSIONER ZACK: The question, I was with you for
24 a while and now I'm not sure that I understand precisely
25 what you said in your last comments and I want to be clear
30
1 as to what the effect of the amendment would be. But what
2 you indicated is, even if this amendment was favorably
3 passed by this body, that you still would have the right
4 to challenge whether a county judge who is continually
5 reappointed, in fact, was acting as a circuit judge; is
6 that correct?
7 (Off-the record comment.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Could you use the microphone,
9 please?
10 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: All right. Now this would be
11 the amended one. The amended one would read, The chief
12 justice shall be the chief administrative officer of the
13 judicial system and shall have the power to assign
14 justices or judges, including consenting retired justices
15 or judges, to duty in any court and to delegate to the
16 chief judges of the judicial circuits the power to assign
17 judges for duty in their respective circuits.
18 In other words, I could, if I wanted to, just say,
19 I'm not giving you that authority and I refuse to assign
20 this particular county judge to circuit court work. I can
21 do that. I can do that right now but I don't.
22 COMMISSIONER ZACK: You don't and other --
23 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: Other justices don't either.
24 We've left it up to the chief justices of the circuits
25 because they know what the needs are in their particular
31
1 circuits.
2 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Now, would the ruling of the
3 Supreme Court possibly have been different had the
4 appointment that was challenged under the case law cited
5 in our materials been made by the chief justice as opposed
6 to the circuit chief?
7 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: That's hard to say. The main
8 complaint was these county judges were sitting there as I
9 recall 3« and 4 years. There were two of them and that
10 this not meet the present constitutional provision that
11 says "temporary appointment," that's the issue we decided,
12 whether or not this was a temporary appointment.
13 COMMISSIONER ZACK: So as a practical matter, even
14 though a chief justice would have the right to not allow
15 this continual appointment, as a practical matter, it's
16 highly unlikely that would occur; isn't that accurate?
17 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: Yes, highly unlikely. I know
18 one particular judge sitting in Dade County, he's been
19 sitting there as a circuit judge for years and years when
20 he's a retired county court judge, but nobody has ever
21 complained about it. No case has ever been brought before
22 us and we haven't ruled on it.
23 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Well, I guess I'm curious to know
24 your view of this and where you will end up on this
25 question primarily because I don't know and I would like
32
1 to be enlightened, as I'm sure other commissioners, as to
2 how necessary this is for the chief judges of various
3 circuits to have additional powers to help control their
4 calendar and will this, in fact, aid in the administration
5 of justice or is it not necessary?
6 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: It will help them move their
7 calendars and it is necessary in the administration of
8 justice. I just pointed out to you the one negative that
9 I've heard people mention. And, of course, there is
10 always the chief justice that can, even if you change
11 this, if the chief feels a county court judge is just
12 sitting too long as a circuit judge, can just reassign
13 that particular judge.
14 Then of course you have to trust the chief justice of
15 the court and I don't know whether people want to put that
16 authority. No matter which way you do it, whether you
17 keep what's in here now or whether you put in the
18 amendment the chief justice still has the authority to
19 assign the judges. The only reason this was changed was
20 to take out the word "temporary."
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull?
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You served on the Article V
24 Revision Commission. And my recollection is that this was
25 considered by the commission and it was concluded that it
33
1 was an unnecessary addition to the Constitution as
2 proposed; isn't that what happened?
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, I would have to
4 go back to the recommendations. I don't want to go off
5 the top of my head on it because I was of the view that it
6 was recommended and the Legislature decided to defer to
7 what this body had taken up. We'd have to go back to the
8 final report. Possibly Billy can help us.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, the reason I asked that is
10 because if I remember the argument correctly that hasn't
11 been made here today was that what we were doing is
12 creating a combined one-tier trial system by this. And
13 why it doesn't appear that way on the surface, that that
14 was the intent and we had a problem with counties under
15 40,000 or less could have county judges who were not
16 members of the Bar, that was all in the discussion. I
17 haven't heard that discussed today.
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, I think that
19 discussion came up when we had a provision before the
20 Article V task force by Senator Dudley which was
21 attempting to merge the trial courts. I didn't recall
22 that debate when it came up on the temporary assignments.
23 In fact, it was my recollection that those -- we had two
24 county judges that came up and testified before us and I
25 thought it was pretty much a consensus of the body that we
34
1 were very happy that they were doing circuit judge work in
2 those seven or eight counties. And I thought -- I know we
3 did not recommend the merger of the trial courts. But I
4 do think we recommended to eliminate the word "temporary."
5 And as Commissioner Kogan has indicated, the chief
6 justice at all times has control of this because he
7 authorizes the chief judges of the circuits to do what
8 they want to but he can also withdraw that and also I'm
9 well aware, being a recipient of some of these, that when
10 you're assigned, you can assign for a specific time or a
11 specific case. So the control lays completely within the
12 chief justice and he can exercise it as he sees fit.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I don't want to get into
14 the debate, but one of the things that was mentioned in
15 this discussion is the fact that the Constitution requires
16 that the chief justice certify to the Legislature the
17 number of circuit court judges and county judges that are
18 needed. And that one of the problems in having this in
19 place, it's not now there, is that the argument can be
20 made that there is no need for additional circuit judges
21 and certainly no need for additional county judges because
22 the county judges have time in addition to their duties as
23 county judges to serve as circuit judge.
24 And therefore, what you wind up doing is giving an
25 improper picture of the caseload to the individual courts.
35
1 That was my recollection of the main discussion that we
2 had on the Article V revision along with the idea that
3 when you -- under the present Constitution, it's
4 impossible for a chief judge, be he good or bad, to just
5 carte blanche assign a judge to last -- a county judge to
6 last as a circuit judge and then the parties couldn't do
7 anything about it.
8 And there was concern reflected by Commissioner
9 Zack's question about do the parties have a right not to
10 use a county judge. And I don't know that this addresses
11 that, does it, Commissioner Kogan, that issue?
12 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: (Nods negatively.)
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So that would still be whatever
14 it is today you think?
15 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: (Nods affirmatively.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Your answer is yes?
17 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. I think we pretty well
19 understand what this does now. If there's further debate
20 we'll certainly entertain it. Anybody else?
21 Commissioner Thompson?
22 COMISSIONER THOMPSON: I'm going to vote for it and I
23 understand those that are not. From the point of view of
24 the rural counties, and I know most of you don't come from
25 rural counties, so your experience is going to be more
36
1 important as to where you live. But rural counties --
2 let's take a circuit like this one. All the judges by and
3 large are going to be elected from one place, Leon County.
4 So in the other counties out in that circuit, you have a
5 county judge. Now we're requiring all county judges to be
6 lawyers and I don't necessarily agree with that by the
7 way. And one of the best I know is not a lawyer. But
8 nevertheless, we're doing that.
9 And so what happens is in those outlying areas,
10 because of the caseload and the bigger county in the
11 circuit, it's harder to get with a circuit judge. And
12 when the jurisdiction was changed of the circuit courts to
13 include probate and some of those things that the county
14 courts have historically done, that then changed access
15 for things like ex parte orders and so forth and probate
16 matters. You can't find a judge. You have to get in line
17 at the Leon County Courthouse for quite a little bit of
18 time because of the caseload and all.
19 Whereas, if you were in Liberty County and your judge
20 was assigned on a more or less permanent basis to circuit
21 matters, then you can go to that judge and in the morning
22 he or she can sit over county court matters and take a
23 break, sign your probate order, and go on about your
24 business. So it works out pretty good. And I think the
25 public is well served by it and the qualification question
37
1 is answered.
2 In our response to Mr. Connor's concern about,
3 probably what I see and being concerned about to some
4 extent, is a singletary trial system. And I tell you, if
5 you're going to require all the judges to be lawyers, you
6 might as well make up your mind that you're going to end
7 up getting there some day and there's no doubt about it,
8 especially in the rural counties, that's about the way
9 something like this will work out. And it's no big
10 problem.
11 And before these decisions that made I think the
12 judges, the chief judges, reluctant to have a sort of a
13 permanent assignment of those county judges, those lawyer
14 county judges to the circuit responsibilities, it worked
15 real well and you had access to judges. Remember in small
16 counties, you've got a county judge for the smallest
17 populated county in the state as well as those and the
18 others. So, you know, they can fill in. They do get paid
19 the enhanced amount that circuit judges get paid, but
20 that's not a big difference to the taxpayers, especially
21 for, I think, the efficiency of the system.
22 So it works pretty good and I don't see any big
23 problem with it from the point of view of the counties
24 that I know about. If you see problems, then, of course,
25 I certainly would understand that.
38
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mathis?
2 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Will Commissioner Thompson
3 yield for a question?
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
5 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Is there a problem with keeping
6 records of county cases versus circuit cases and where
7 those cases are assigned or doesn't the clerk keep those
8 records now and couldn't you tell from looking at those
9 records when a temporarily-assigned county court judge
10 heard a circuit court case?
11 COMISSIONER THOMPSON: Sure. They always just assign
12 them as active circuit judges is what my experience has
13 been. So the clerk's office keeps up with all that. I've
14 never known of any problems.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor?
16 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to vote
17 against the proposal for two reasons. One, I am persuaded
18 by Commissioner Mills' observations that if this
19 stopped-at measure is permitted to continue indefinitely,
20 it does take the heat off the Legislature from doing what
21 it should do which is to fund a circuit judge's position
22 for the circuit involved.
23 Two, from practicing around the state, I have found
24 that there is wide variation in the experience level with
25 familiarity of circuit judges and county judges with
39
1 respect to issues that commonly recur in circuit court.
2 And the parties do not, as I understand it, have any say
3 in whether or not the case will be presided over by a
4 county judge on assignment or circuit judge. And because
5 of that great variation, I feel confident it may work
6 better in small circuits where folks get called on more
7 commonly to do circuit duty than in some of the larger
8 circuits.
9 My reservations have nothing to do with the lack of
10 confidence in the chief justice or the person who occupies
11 the position of chief justice. We do have a two-tiered
12 system. We are determined to maintain that system in
13 place and I would be careful about doing indirectly what
14 we have not been willing to do directly.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further
16 discussion, debate? All right. Prepare to vote. Unlock
17 the machine. Lock the machine and record the vote.
18 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
19 READING CLERK: 12 yeas, 15 nays, Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It fails. All right. We'll move
21 to Proposal 39 where we left with great confusion
22 yesterday afternoon. Are you prepared to unconfuse us,
23 Commissioner Henderson?
24 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I am more than
25 prepared to get everybody on track to put this one up or
40
1 down and get on with it.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Before you go, there is --
3 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: You're not going to try to
4 confuse us, are you?
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes, I am. I'm going to call on
6 Commissioner Barnett. Well, I was going to have her
7 introduce our page and our page went to do some work.
8 We'll wait until she comes back, Commissioner Barnett.
9 And then I would like the secretary to note that at least
10 two of the members that are recorded present haven't been
11 here since lunch. I want that recorded in the journal.
12 Now, you may proceed.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 And to my colleagues, I want to apologize for the heat of
15 the moment at the end of the day yesterday. I think we
16 all learned what has been said wisely many times here, you
17 get past 5:00 and 5:30 and on to 6:00, our minds are on
18 other things and it's easy to get confused. And so to the
19 extent that I did anything to confuse, what to me is a
20 very important and sensitive issue, I apologize. And I
21 want to tell you exactly where I think we are.
22 Yesterday before we concluded, we adopted an
23 amendment by Commissioner Nabors and that is now the --
24 and that amendment is essentially what was favorably
25 reported from the Committee on Bonding Investments on this
41
1 issue. And so I want to make sure that everybody has
2 before you the language that we are about to vote on
3 because it is not in the orange packet and it is not in
4 the blue packet. What it is in is in the journal. And if
5 you look in the journal on Page 135, it is the italicized
6 language in the bottom right-hand corner. So I want to be
7 sure you're all with us. So you're all with us, that is
8 what is before us.
9 And I see some people referring to the actual
10 amendment itself from yesterday, it's the same language.
11 It doesn't matter. I just want to make sure that one of
12 these -- I see Commissioner Thompson looking. You can
13 either refer to Amendments 1 to 39, which was handed out
14 yesterday afternoon, or you can refer to Page 135 of the
15 journal down at the bottom, the italicized language. Are
16 we all there?
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We're on Proposal 39 which is not
18 what we're on; is that correct?
19 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: No, sir, we're on Proposal
20 39 as amended.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: As amended. And then in order to
22 determine how it's amended, you read the journal or the
23 amendment.
24 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I don't want to confuse you.
25 We're on 39 as amended and the only way you can see what
42
1 that is is by looking at the journal.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And that number is what of that
3 proposal?
4 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: We are on Proposal 39 as now
5 amended.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: And I'm prepared to move
8 that forward to conclude this matter which would conclude
9 39 and would also conclude other proposals.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Have we adopted the amendment?
11 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: We have adopted the
12 amendment, yes, sir.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So maybe I should ask
14 the clerk to read the -- we didn't do any reading when we
15 started. Read the proposal title.
16 READING CLERK: Proposal 39 by Commissioner
17 Henderson, Article X, Florida Constitution; creating the
18 Florida Land and Water Conservation Trust Fund and
19 providing for its source of funds and purposes.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
21 Henderson, if you would explain now how the proposal as
22 amended differs from the present Constitution, then that
23 may get us to where we need to go.
24 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Let me explain where we are
25 and what we're going to try to do here. Now we've gotten
43
1 past the procedure because I don't want there to be any
2 confusion about this. As we heard during the public
3 testimony, we have a very successful program in this state
4 called Preservation 2000 which was started by Governor
5 Martinez, continued by Governor Chiles. And each
6 Legislature in the last eight years under the leadership
7 of Commissioner Crenshaw, Commissioner Scott and now
8 Commissioner Jennings, have all approved bonding under
9 this proposal.
10 Unfortunately, that bonding existed under a carryover
11 to the 1885 Constitution. And so the reference to this is
12 in a footnote at the end of Article 12, Section 17, of the
13 schedule which says that, The bonding authority for this
14 program expires in the year 2013. Now that means in a
15 practical matter when the Legislature goes to issue bonds
16 this year for the eighth or ninth series of bonds, that
17 there will only be a 14 year or 15-year life on those
18 bonds.
19 And so the program, effectively, will expire in two
20 years because the bonds will be unmarketable. So there
21 were three proposals that were filed. And we went to the
22 Committee on Bonding and Investments. And the language,
23 which is before you, is essentially the preferred language
24 that came out of committee, decided on the wisdom of
25 Commissioner Nabors who I think, by the way, Commissioner
44
1 Nabors is an outstanding bond lawyer -- worked with him in
2 a number of capacities -- that the best way to do this was
3 not to fix it in the schedule of the Constitution but
4 actually to move it into the bond section and allow for
5 the issuance of full faith and credit to be used for this
6 purpose so voters can approve it and be able to continue
7 to do that.
8 And what it does is give to the Legislature the
9 annual discretion, the annual discretion, to decide how
10 they should or would use this authority for bonding.
11 Currently they are doing it on a basis of about $300
12 million a year. Currently they are using a portion of
13 revenues and documentary stamps. And so the proposal that
14 is before you doesn't deal with that, doesn't tie up the
15 Legislature, doesn't tie up the documentary stamps. It
16 gives them full discretion on the use of that. And so
17 that is what is before you today.
18 So what the proposal is different from, merely
19 amending the schedule, as is Commissioner Barkdull's
20 proposal, is because we've learned a lot in the last eight
21 years, Preservation 2000. So the language that is before
22 you makes more sense for where we are in the program
23 today. Will help us with water issues, will help us with
24 Everglades restoration and other things. And I would say
25 this. When we finish -- when we finish with the bond
45
1 committee -- and I wish Commissioner Hawkes were here to
2 express all this today but he was trying to do that
3 yesterday afternoon -- there were a number of interests
4 that were in the room that we were working with.
5 If you can imagine in a bill dollar program like
6 this, not only are there environmental issues, there are
7 representatives of industry, agriculture, forestry, local
8 governments. You know, since this program was put
9 together, over 20 local governments representing a vast
10 majority of people of the state have all approved bond
11 issues of their own and they're using those funds to match
12 with Preservation 2000 so they're able to have additional
13 acquisitions back in their home communities.
14 And so after that, we got together, we worked out the
15 language which is before you. So I can represent to you
16 today that the language, which I'm going to ask you to
17 support favorably, is essentially what was approved by the
18 committee. It is language that all the interests have
19 agreed to and it is something that will command great
20 public support and has indeed tremendous bipartisan
21 support.
22 So I will tell you that of all things that we do,
23 this may be the one thing that when it's all over and done
24 with will have the greatest impact for us, our children,
25 our grandchildren.
46
1 If we were dealing with schools or roads or prisons,
2 we'd all be agreeing that as we grow and continue to grow,
3 the dynamic state we are, 700 people a day moving to this
4 state, that of course we'd like to continue to be able to
5 take care of those needs, those infrastructure needs,
6 roads, prisons, and schools. Unfortunately, our
7 flexibility to deal with this issue will expire in a very
8 short period of time. This is our best opportunity to fix
9 that. It is something that commands great public support.
10 And in that regard, I'm happy to propose its adoption.
11 Mr. Chairman, any questions, I'll be glad to try to
12 answer.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think what's been bothering, at
14 least bothering me with all of this discussion, and the
15 reason I keep asking how this differs from the previous
16 Constitution, is that my understanding always has been,
17 and as it is stated in Section A of Article 11, that the
18 state bond pledging the full faith and credit of the state
19 may be issued only to finance -- or refinance the cost of
20 state fixed capital outlay projects authorized by law and
21 purposes incidental thereto upon approval by the vote of
22 electors. And we operated on that for many years in the
23 state of Florida when we didn't have full faith and credit
24 bonds by the state.
25 And then we had what is P2000 referred to, and we
47
1 authorized the pledging of state bonds pledging all or
2 part of the full faith and credit of the state. And in
3 the amendment, as I understand it, you just added some
4 language which didn't really change it, it added something
5 to it like water resources or --
6 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Just to be very clear about
7 what's added in this --
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But it is essentially the same.
9 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: The same thing as water
10 resources, historic preservation and restoration.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Would the adoption of this allow
12 the state to pledge the full faith and credit of the state
13 by law without the referendum?
14 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I'm going to allow -- I'm
15 going to ask, if I could, defer to Commissioner Nabors to
16 answer that. This is, as I understand it, this is
17 typically the way this is done for various projects where
18 the full faith and credit has been pledged. And,
19 Mr. Nabors, could you help me with that question?
20 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it would.
21 And the reason we went into Article VII, Section 11, is
22 because that's the provision that says there can be no
23 state bonds payable from state tax revenues. There are
24 many times in the Constitution in Article VII we enumerate
25 the ability of the state to incur debt. It has to be a
48
1 specific constitutional amendment because Article VII,
2 Section 11 -- so what it does, except for those that are
3 grandfathered in, like the P2000 was grandfathered in,
4 Peco (phonetic) is grandfathered in, which is part of the
5 gross receipts tax.
6 So what this does, it allows the citizens, if they
7 want to approve this, to allow either the Legislature by
8 general law, by general law, to either pledge a full faith
9 and credit, which is what they are essentially doing now,
10 or to designate a revenue stream within their discretion
11 to be used for these purposes.
12 And it also, since it's in Article VII, Section 11,
13 any projects that are funded with bond proceeds, if you'll
14 look in the journal on the amendment in existing law,
15 Subsection F has to be approved in the appropriations act
16 or by general law.
17 So the Legislature goes through this process, it
18 approves the projects, and it basically, if the voters
19 approve this, it would have the ability by general law to
20 authorize essentially the Preservation 2000 program to
21 continue.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Then what you are
23 telling me is under the present Constitution the only
24 bonds that may pledge the full faith and credit of the
25 state without a referendum are Peco bonds and --
49
1 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Well --
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Wait a minute, and these bonds.
3 Now, whether we amended the Constitution or not --
4 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Well you have bonds, you have
5 bonds for transportation, other things. Every time -- any
6 time you pledge a full faith and credit of the state after
7 the '68 revision, it requires a specific constitutional
8 amendment if it is not grandfathered in. The problem is
9 this Preservation 2000 is grandfathered in, but it is
10 scheduled and its term is expiring.
11 So you really -- it is inappropriate really to go in
12 and try to amend the scheduled provision of the 1885
13 Constitution. If the people want to allow this type of
14 funding to continue, then it ought to be a freestanding
15 proposal to that effect.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, the reason I keep asking
17 this is because if that's true, then why do we have the
18 provision that requires a referendum to have the full
19 faith and credit of the state proposed? And granted you
20 can bond anything and pledge the full faith and credit, if
21 by referendum it is proposed, what this does is allow the
22 Legislature and maybe that's what it does now, but it
23 allows the Legislature, without a referendum, to pledge
24 all of the future revenue of the state to secure the
25 bonds, which creates a much lower interest rate, I'm sure.
50
1 Commissioner Barkdull, do you rise to that?
2 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: As I read this, this is a
3 grant of authority to the Legislature by law to issue
4 general revenue bonds with no vote of the people for items
5 that are not covered in the present Constitution. And
6 that's the reason why I have indicated to Commissioner
7 Henderson that I would not support the proposal. All I
8 wanted to do with my proposal was do what Virginia
9 Wetherall asked us to do, and that was to extend the time
10 for refinancing for the P2000 bonds.
11 But clearly, when you add this language to the
12 Constitution, which this does and it is not in the present
13 Constitution, state bonds pledging all or part of
14 dedicated State tax revenues or the full faith and credit
15 of the State, may be issued by the state in a manner
16 provided by general law to finance the acquisition -- I've
17 left out a couple of words which were refinance -- and
18 improvement of the natural land, water areas, and related
19 interests and resources for the purpose of conservation,
20 outdoor recreation, water resource development,
21 restoration of natural systems or historic preservation
22 and for such multiple purposes as provided by general law.
23 There is no such grant in the present Constitution
24 for the Legislature to do that and there is a very good
25 reason. This state either went bankrupt or came very
51
1 close to becoming bankrupt because it issued a lot of
2 bonds in the 1920s. And in the early '30s we put a
3 prohibition in against the state having any more of those
4 bonds. And finally in the '60s it began to relax that a
5 little bit. This is now going back to what we had before
6 where there would be an unlimited authority in the
7 Legislature to issue full faith and credit bonds with no
8 vote of the people and I think it is a bad idea.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Now, who wants to rise to
10 speak? I think Commissioner Butterworth.
11 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Thank you very much,
12 Mr. Chairman. I read some of these words and it gives me
13 a great deal of problems. We don't have any numbers for
14 the sentences, but the words "and related interest," I
15 have real, real problems with that and I would have to
16 vote no on this measure, even though I am in favor of
17 extending Proposition 2000, and I think it will cause more
18 problems in the long run than the small part than the
19 large problem we are attempting to fix.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody else? Commissioner
21 Scott?
22 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I would like to speak in support
23 of this amendment. It's admittedly a little bit more than
24 just Preservation 2000, but I think it is good. I think
25 that Preservation 2000, which we have had a lot of people
52
1 when we first started it ten years ago or so, concerned
2 about it and what are they doing and whatever. I think
3 it's proven itself. It is an example of the type of thing
4 that should be available to the Legislature to deal with
5 and this does not mandate anything, it simply authorizes
6 them to deal with it.
7 The 50-year, I think it is a 50-year limitation, on
8 Preservation 2000 is an example of outmoded things that we
9 don't really need in the Constitution. So this doesn't
10 have any date in it and I would be in support of it and
11 try to answer any questions if anybody has any, other than
12 the chairman.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I had one you don't want to
14 answer I think. About we can't now issue bonds for
15 historic preservation, can we, without, of the general,
16 pledging the general revenues of the state without a
17 referendum?
18 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Why don't we let the sponsor who
19 is more familiar with what we can and can't. Some of it
20 we can, some of it we probably can't.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's what's bothering me.
22 We've added, to me, in the Constitution a lot of things
23 that people never thought you could do with this.
24 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: If the people vote to
25 approve this then they have issued that authority. I
53
1 think that's --
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We all understand that with every
3 proposal.
4 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: And so right now we are
5 purchasing property for historic preservation out of
6 Preservation 2000. We purchased historic sites,
7 archeological sites, the DeSoto site here in Tallahassee
8 is a good example of that. So that's not inconsistent
9 with what we are doing now.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have an amendment on the desk.
11 That's what I wanted to hear because I don't think people
12 are aware that you pledge the full faith and credit of the
13 state for those things. And what you are telling me is we
14 do it now and under the existing Constitution, while it is
15 not in the Constitution. It is in the schedule; is that
16 correct? We are trying to now put what's in the schedule
17 in the Constitution and remove the date?
18 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That's right.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And also adding what Commissioner
20 Butterworth questioned.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That is correct. We are
22 basically taking the language from the schedule, putting
23 in the main body, there are additional words, perhaps with
24 Mr. Crenshaw's amendment we can word-smith. If the
25 Attorney General wants to make it a suggestion, we might
54
1 do that. This is just something we need to do.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The amendment is on
3 the table by Commissioner Crenshaw. It is an amendment to
4 the proposal as amended which we have been debating.
5 Commissioner Crenshaw, you are recognized on your
6 amendment. And welcome, we missed you.
7 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: Sorry, my plane was cancelled
8 yesterday. And I watched the mechanic take the top off
9 the wing and he never did put it back. So that's why I
10 didn't get on the plane.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, we would have sent a car
12 for you.
13 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Members, I think what Commissioner Barkdull said has merit
15 as long as there is a provision in this that I think ought
16 not to be in it because first and foremost, Commissioner
17 Henderson I think has stated well that all this does,
18 without the language that I'm going to amend out, all it
19 does is extend the authority that the state has now to
20 issue bonds for the Preservation 2000 program. It extends
21 that credit through this provision.
22 And if the people of Florida adopt this provision,
23 then they will have -- we will have the referendum. They
24 will have said, Yes, we would like to be able to pledge
25 the full faith and credit of the state to issue these
55
1 kinds of bonds. But the one troubling thing that I think
2 gives credibility to what Commissioner Barkdull says, and
3 what I would propose to amend out, if you read the last
4 sentence of the italicized language or the last sentence
5 on the amendment from yesterday, it goes through and says,
6 You can pledge all or part of the dedicated state tax
7 revenue for the full faith and credit, et cetera, et
8 cetera. And it talks about the different things you can
9 pledge it for.
10 But then it says, And for such multiple purposes as
11 provided by general law. Now, I agree with Commissioner
12 Barkdull, what that says is, if the people were to adopt
13 this, that the Legislature can pledge the full faith and
14 credit of the state of Florida for these things like
15 recreation, water, whatever, and for anything else they
16 decide they want to do in this chamber. And I don't think
17 that's a good idea just like Commissioner Barkdull.
18 But I do think as long as you tell the people that we
19 are going to extend this authority, we are going to allow
20 you, just like you can today, to pledge the full faith and
21 credit of the state of Florida because we think it is
22 important in terms of the preservation of the environment
23 to do things like acquire land, improve land, water
24 resources, restoration of natural systems. Those are
25 clear and simple and understandable. And we ought to do
56
1 that.
2 But we ought not to say -- and also, by the way, we
3 are going to ask you-all to vote, through a referendum, to
4 say anything the Legislature decides it's going to do by
5 general law that it is going to be able to pledge the full
6 faith and credit as well.
7 So I think if you will take out the language that
8 says, And for such multiple purposes as provided by
9 general law, those are in addition to the things that are
10 already there, take that out, I think Commissioner
11 Barkdull's objections go away and we are exactly where we
12 ought to be in terms of extending this kind of authority
13 to the state of Florida. I'll be happy to answer any
14 questions.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There is another
16 amendment. It is an amendment to the amendment or is it a
17 separate amendment, Commissioner Butterworth?
18 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: A separate amendment.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We will proceed then
20 on the amendment that's pending that's been offered by
21 Commissioner Crenshaw which deletes the last sentence of
22 Section E in the Constitution of Section 11 that reads,
23 And for such multiple purposes provided by general law.
24 Commissioner Scott, you are recognized.
25 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I just have a question for
57
1 Commissioner Crenshaw.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The commissioner yields.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Commissioner, what you are doing
4 is taking out a broad reference but it would not preclude
5 a bond issuing being for more than one of these purposes
6 listed; is that correct?
7 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: That's exactly right. It
8 will only be for the things that are listed here that
9 people can understand and vote yes or no in this statewide
10 referendum.
11 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Right. So that multiple
12 purposes could be of those but only those, not something
13 that's not listed.
14 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: And the determinative
15 language is as provided by general law. In other words,
16 the people of Florida ought not to give the Legislature
17 the authority to come up here and decide now we're going
18 to pledge a full faith and credit to issue bonds for some
19 strange reason.
20 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mickey Mouse, okay.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley?
22 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I have a question for the maker
23 of the amendment.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The Commissioner yields.
25 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I understand why the multiple
58
1 purposes part you would want to take out, but why is it
2 provided by general law in terms of process, would that
3 not need to be left?
4 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: I think as provided by
5 general law really is what is at issue here. In other
6 words, the things that are listed in the constitutional
7 amendment here are like outdoor recreation and water
8 resource development, et cetera, those are things the
9 people have a chance to vote on and they say, yes, it's
10 okay to pledge the full faith and credit. But they ought
11 not to be asked to pledge the full faith and credit of
12 things that the Legislature just decides to do by general
13 law.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further debate on
15 the amendment or inquiries? If not, we will proceed to
16 vote on the amendment. All in favor say aye, opposed like
17 sign.
18 (Verbal vote taken.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. And now we are on
20 the proposal as amended. And there is now an amendment on
21 the table by Commissioner Butterworth. Would you read the
22 amendment, please?
23 READING CLERK: On Page 2, Line 16, delete "related
24 interest" and insert "related natural resources."
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Butterworth, you are
59
1 recognized on your proposed amendment.
2 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 This goes along with the previous amendment and it takes
4 away the opportunity for multiple purposes. It just says,
5 "related natural resources," versus the old language that
6 says "related interests" and I have no idea what "related
7 interests" means. I have a higher comfort level with
8 "related natural resources."
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any discussion on the
10 amendment? All in favor say aye. All opposed.
11 (Verbal vote taken.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment caries. And now we
13 revert to the proposal as amended. Is there any further
14 discussion on it as amended?
15 Commissioner Barkdull?
16 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir, I would like
17 Commissioner Henderson to take the floor if he would and
18 try to explain something to me because I guess I'm dense.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We won't get into that but we
20 will ask Commissioner Henderson to take the floor.
21 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'm looking at the
22 Constitution as printed in the rule book that we have in
23 front of us which is a blue cover on Page C40 which
24 relates to Article XII and makes some reference to the
25 1885 Constitution and Section 17 thereof.
60
1 And that starts out with bonds' land acquisition for
2 outdoor recreation development. Those were what I
3 understood to be the bonds that we wanted to permit a
4 refinancing of. I do not see any of the language that's
5 in the beginning of this section that you find on Page 40
6 which relates to bond -- bonds' land acquisition for
7 outdoor recreation development, that type of limitation in
8 this proposal that's before us.
9 And that's what's concerning me, that this is a broad
10 grant of power and that, which is in this Section 14, is a
11 limited grant of power.
12 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd be glad to
13 answer that. I think it's important to note the
14 historical context of this because of where this is and
15 what the Legislature has done with it. What is in the
16 footnote at the tail end and fine print of the
17 Constitution is a carryover from 1885 of a grant of
18 authority that would build our state park system.
19 You know, if you think about what we have today,
20 we've got a pretty good, actually we've got a great state
21 park system. And at the time, this was the vehicle to get
22 that accomplished.
23 Now there is a lot of language in there that's now
24 obsolete about the way bonds are issued because it has all
25 been carried over in the main part of the Constitution and
61
1 the part of the Constitution that we are now amending. So
2 what the Legislature did after, when Preservation 2000 was
3 created, was develop a program that was very specific that
4 was tied to the authority, the grant of authority in this
5 tail end of the Constitution.
6 Now since -- so they had this as the authority. They
7 also had the procedures that were in place with other
8 general law in other parts of the Constitution and the
9 mechanics of it. I mean, this is a bonding program. You
10 can't -- bonds still have to be paid off. You still have
11 to have a funding source that's tied to paying them back.
12 The Legislature, through the appropriations process,
13 has done that every year and I see conversations going on
14 back here. I know that Commissioner Scott and
15 Commissioner Crenshaw when they were president of the
16 Senate each year had to work on issues relating to finding
17 the revenue to pay off these bonds. And we have done that
18 through the documentary stamp tax essentially each of
19 these eight years.
20 So what we're doing with this proposal is having a
21 clean start, a grant of authority that people will approve
22 that allows the Legislature to exercise that but they will
23 still have to exercise it prudently. It is a bond. You
24 are borrowing money from the people, you still have to pay
25 it back. Why is bonding important?
62
1 Bonding is important for two reasons. We need to
2 keep this in mind, the economics of all this. Why are we
3 even talking about bonding? The state is growing at a
4 rate of 700 people per day. When we acquire special
5 places today and we do it by borrowing money for bonding,
6 it is allowing all those other people who are moving here
7 to help pay the cost of taking care of that special place.
8 The other thing that it does is lock in the cost today.
9 We all know the beautiful, special places in Florida are
10 escalating in value everyday because of the changes in the
11 real estate market.
12 So there is a prudent, businesslike reason to do
13 this. And so that's what we are trying to do. We are
14 trying to give the Legislature the authority to do this.
15 I certainly believe that the amendments that have just
16 been adopted help us to refine this issue to get us in a
17 place where we ought to be able to approve this. And I
18 guess my question now to the back of the room; is there
19 anything else we move to move forward on this?
20 (Off-the-record comment.)
21 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I'm supposed to keep them.
22 Any other questions?
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'm not granting a recess, but we
24 are sort of having one. Because I'm inclined to agree
25 with what you-all were doing because I went back and read
63
1 this and it does create what Commissioner Barkdull had
2 questioned and Commissioner Barkdull opposed which I think
3 you-all were trying to resolve. Which one of you wants to
4 be recognized to report the consensus of the meeting in
5 the back of the room?
6 Commissioner Butterworth?
7 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: If I could ask
8 Commissioner Henderson a question. Commissioner
9 Henderson, the way this is presently drafted and amended,
10 can we buy a less than fee, just conservation easements or
11 whatever else?
12 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I was sure of it before your
13 amendment, Commissioner.
14 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: What are we doing now?
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Thompson wants to
16 tell us what the problem is.
17 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman and members,
18 here is the problem we discussed. When you take out
19 related interest, and I agree that was a broad term, and
20 we don't know what all that would authorize the full faith
21 and credit the state to be pledged for the purchase of.
22 But I think all of us, if we are going to do this, and I
23 think the public, if we are going to do this, would want
24 you to be able to buy less than the fee. And for the
25 nonlawyers, what that means is conservation easements and
64
1 development rights and so forth.
2 I think that's a better buy for the government, and I
3 think that is a good way to preserve land without taking
4 it off the tax rolls completely and so forth. And so I am
5 sure that's probably why that term was put in there when
6 you-all were doing the drafting. But we -- everybody also
7 understands and is concerned about making it too broad.
8 One of the things we have discussed was to reconsider
9 that amendment and offer in lieu of that an interest --
10 related interest in land. But I'm not sure of even that
11 because then, what do you do about water resources?
12 So what I guess we are saying is maybe we ought to
13 make a statement here and go on to style and drafting with
14 it and then when it comes back out, that would probably be
15 better considered and lawyered a little bit more. So I
16 guess what's the pleasure?
17 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I'll yield to answer your
18 question. I agree with you. The reason why the related
19 interest was placed there was to make sure that we could
20 do less than the fee acquisition. And I think if we just
21 had interests -- plural, interests --
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Couldn't you just say less than
23 fee acquisition?
24 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: No, I don't want to put that
25 in the Constitution. Just put interest. That way, you
65
1 don't define what --
2 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Related property interest?
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's what a fee interest is,
4 correct? Well, a fee interest is a property interest.
5 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: But aren't we talking about
6 something less than the fee when we talk about development
7 rights for example, or conservation easements?
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Correct. Any kind of easement
9 would be less --
10 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: So a related property
11 interest would encompass development rights or
12 conservation easements. All right. Can we temporarily --
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well if somebody would offer an
14 amendment.
15 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Interests, plural, interests
16 in land.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Hold on just a moment, we are
18 going to take just a minute for somebody to draft this.
19 But, Commissioner Butterworth, assume they come up with a
20 draft that meets that provision, I would suggest that you
21 would withdraw your amendment and then let them offer the
22 amendment that meets the general consensus of meeting the
23 problem; is that agreeable?
24 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Whatever the Chair
25 dictates is fine.
66
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'm not dictating that at all.
2 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Whatever the Chair
3 advises.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I would think that would make us
5 get to it easier.
6 Move to -- there has been a motion to reconsider the
7 amendment that we just adopted offered by Commissioner
8 Butterworth. All in favor of reconsidering that say aye.
9 Opposed, like sign.
10 (Verbal vote taken.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now we will -- we
12 don't have to vote on the amendment. It is withdrawn.
13 Now, we have an amendment that will be on the table very
14 shortly covering that subject. In the meantime, for your
15 edification, you might read that again, so we know where
16 we are. (Pause.) All right. Is there an amendment on
17 the table yet? Okay. We have got a little scribner work
18 to do here.
19 We are waiting on them to put the amendment on the
20 table so we can read it. And I'm going to recognize
21 Commissioner Mills first and then Commissioner Scott. Who
22 is offering the amendment?
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I am.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills offers the
25 amendment.
67
1 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, as I understand
2 the question --
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now everybody pay attention.
4 Tell them what the amendment says because we haven't read
5 it yet.
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: It inserts the words "related
7 property interest." And as I understand the issue -- as I
8 understand the issue, it is a desire to be able to acquire
9 an interest in land that may be less than buying the whole
10 land that is the whole -- to buy the property, to buy a
11 conservation easement. So this says a "related interest,"
12 "related property interests" then is that definition and
13 it would be the intention of the Commission, if this
14 passes, to include those lesser interests other than a
15 full fee.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have got two people wanting
17 you to yield, Commissioner Thompson and Commissioner
18 Scott, which one do you want?
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I'd like them both.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'll give you one at a time.
21 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Okay. I'll take Scott first.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott.
23 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: What are we striking, because
24 part of the concern that I had was that we had stuck
25 "related resources" which might include water and air.
68
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The only thing that was struck in
2 the original amendment was "related interest" I think;
3 isn't that correct?
4 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: What are we striking in the
5 Mills' amendment, that's my point.
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Commissioner Thompson will ask a
7 question that would clarify that.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Thompson?
9 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, I went up and
10 looked. Let me tell you-all exactly where we are.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Can I have her read it?
12 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Sure, but let me give this
13 explanation.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I certainly will.
15 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: This is going to be real
16 simple. If you will look at what Commissioner Henderson
17 told you to begin with was the amendment, which is on
18 Page 135, Subsection E, and you'll look one, two, three,
19 four lines down where the words "related interest" are
20 located, we are merely inserting, forget everything that
21 Commissioner Butterworth has done as far as his amendment,
22 we are merely inserting the word "property" between
23 "related" and "interest." That's the only change to what
24 you have in front of you.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does that then apply to the
69
1 words -- it will read, And water areas and related
2 property interest and resources for the purposes of
3 conservation. It wouldn't apply to resources? Or would
4 it? I think it says "and resources," not "or." So we
5 want to be clear on that because you are talking about
6 applying an easement for the purpose of conservation and
7 all those other purposes as well, are you not,
8 Commissioner Mills?
9 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, sir.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is that clear to
11 everybody then that that also allows as redrafted "and
12 related property interest and resources" would apply to
13 all those purposes that are stated there? Commissioner
14 Lowndes, you have been very quiet and you know a lot about
15 this. Do you have any interpretations on the language for
16 us?
17 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: I think they are doing an
18 excellent job.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yeah, but we are not there yet.
20 Do you think that it does what they intend to do then as
21 it reads which is to allow easements to be acquired for
22 all of these purposes, not just for water resources or
23 related to water areas?
24 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: If I was going to change it, I
25 would put "related property interests therein" so you knew
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1 what they were related to. But other than that, I think
2 it is the way to do it.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So we can really
4 refer that to style and drafting if there is a needed
5 change in the language with the understanding that you
6 want it to apply too everything; is that correct?
7 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Do you want to buy -- the
8 state to buy a related interest, Mr. Mills, in historic
9 preservation? I mean, and I'm just thinking out loud and
10 asking for the group, I think we need to reach a --
11 Mr. Lowndes, maybe he would yield?
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Lowndes?
13 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: I think the answer to that is
14 you leave them with the flexibility to do it. You might
15 find the circumstances in which you would like to do it
16 and you might not, but you're not giving them that
17 flexibility. I don't think -- to give them the
18 flexibility, I don't think is harmful.
19 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Further inquiry, Mr. Nabors
20 just pointed out to me that if we do what we are talking
21 now, you are buying the property interest for the purpose
22 of those things so that would clarify it, I think,
23 Mr. Chairman, better than anything we have said so far as
24 far as I'm concerned.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So that if it needs
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1 to be cleaned up, we know the intent, the amendment is on
2 the table. All those in favor of the amendment, unless
3 there is further debate, will please say aye. Opposed?
4 (Verbal vote taken.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. We now are on the
6 proposal as amended which I think we all understand as
7 well as we are going to where we are. Now we will then
8 proceed to vote on the proposal as amended.
9 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everybody voted that wants to
11 vote? Lock the machine and announce the vote.
12 READING CLERK: 25 ayes, 2 nays, Mr. Chairman.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Morsani, you were
14 not joined by one voter. Almost you were. So that honor
15 is still yours at the moment.
16 We will now move to the next item on the special
17 order, which is Proposal No. 151 by Commissioner Barkdull.
18 Would you please read it?
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, I'll
20 short-circuit it, I'll withdraw this. They tell me what
21 we just did cur |
