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1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
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COMMISSION MEETING
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DATE: January 14, 1998
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TIME: Commenced at 8:30 a.m.
11 Concluded at 12:15 p.m.
12 PLACE: The Senate Chamber
The Capitol
13 Tallahassee, Florida
14 REPORTED BY: MONA L. WHIDDON
KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
15 JULIE L. DOHERTY
Court Reporters
16 Division of Administrative Hearings
The DeSoto Building
17 1230 Apalachee Parkway
Tallahassee, Florida
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1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO (EXCUSED)
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
ROBERT M. BROCHIN
6 THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
KEN CONNOR
7 CHRIS CORR
SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW
8 VALERIE EVANS
MARILYN EVANS-JONES
9 BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
10 PAUL HAWKES
WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
11 THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS (EXCUSED UNTIL 11:21 a.m.)
THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
12 DICK LANGLEY
JOHN F. LOWNDES
13 STANLEY MARSHALL
JACINTA MATHIS
14 JON LESTER MILLS
FRANK MORSANI
15 ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
CARLOS PLANAS
16 JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
17 SENATOR JIM SCOTT
H. T. SMITH
18 ALAN C. SUNDBERG (EXCUSED)
JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON
19 PAUL WEST
GERALD T. WETHERINGTON (EXCUSED)
20 STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
PAT BARTON
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IRA H. LEESFIELD c(ABSENT)
22 LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN
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1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Roll taken and recorded electronically.)
3 SECRETARY BLANTON: All unauthorized visitors, please
4 leave the chambers. All commissioners indicate your
5 presence. (Pause.) Commissioners, indicate your
6 presence. Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. If everyone will be seated
8 please. If everyone will please rise for the opening
9 prayer given this morning by Reverend Larry Perry, pastor
10 of the First Assembly of God Church in Tallahassee.
11 Reverend Perry.
12 REVEREND PERRY: Romans Chapter 15, Verse 1 says: We
13 who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak
14 and not to please ourselves.
15 Each of us should please his neighbor for his good,
16 to build him up. For even Christ did not please himself,
17 but, as it is written, the insults of those who insulted
18 you have fallen on me. For everything that was written in
19 the past was written to teach us, so that through
20 endurance and the encouragement of scripture we might have
21 hope. May the God who gives endurance and encouragement
22 give you a spirit of unity among yourselves.
23 Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day that you
24 have given us, and I pray that you would help us to use it
25 to the benefit not of our ownselves, Lord, but to those
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1 that we represent, those that you have called us to serve.
2 Lord, I pray not for the work today of this committee, but
3 for each and every individual in this place, that you by
4 your grace would support, sustain and strengthen and give
5 wisdom and instruction.
6 Some may be suffering at home, Lord. Some may need a
7 special touch today. And I ask you, Lord Jesus, to touch
8 by your presence, by your Holy Spirit. Bless this day.
9 Bless this work, Lord. In Jesus' name, we pray. Amen.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett, would you
11 please come forward and lead us in the pledge?
12 (Pledge of allegiance.)
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We'll now proceed. Commissioner
14 Barkdull.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, members of the
16 Commission, you have on your desk a calendar for today.
17 We have, on the front page of it, you have the committee
18 meetings that are scheduled for this afternoon. Please
19 note that two have been canceled -- or one has been
20 canceled. And there's one committee meeting that's not on
21 Thursday's calendar, which is the Declaration of Rights,
22 which is scheduled for 6:15 tomorrow afternoon -- tomorrow
23 evening.
24 You have on your desk the orange book which we have
25 been using. We will continue to use it for a short period
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1 today. You have the blue book, which we will go into and
2 use. You will be distributed, as we reach those portions
3 of the calendar, additional colored binders by the staff.
4 They are going to distribute them now and there will be a
5 yellow binder. And then this goes for -- I guess that's
6 gold, and this goes for garnet. We have orange and blue,
7 and gold and garnet. I don't know how that happened, just
8 that the staff has certain sentiments, apparently.
9 The rules committee met yesterday and wanted to alert
10 the Commission that on our next meeting, which commences
11 on Monday the 26th at 1:00 o'clock, that it is scheduled
12 to -- in your calendar, to adjourn at 1:00 p.m. on that
13 Wednesday. Because this is a very short meeting, we have
14 decided to alert you that it'll probably go until 5:00 on
15 Wednesday, not 1:00.
16 We have had a lot of inquiry about this Friday. And,
17 very frankly, until we see what comes out of the
18 committees this afternoon and what progress we make this
19 morning and tomorrow morning, we cannot tell about the
20 Friday calendar, but at the present time it is still
21 scheduled. For convenience, the lunch will be served both
22 today and tomorrow in the lounge.
23 Obviously, I do not anticipate that we will go until
24 2:00 o'clock and commence committee meetings at
25 2:00 o'clock. There will be some break between the
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1 session and the scheduled committee meetings, although I
2 know there are certain committee meetings that have
3 witnesses that are coming from out of town and they are on
4 tight plane schedules. So I anticipate that we will break
5 on time so that the committees can meet on time to
6 accommodate the witnesses that they have requested to come
7 in. Other than that, Mr. Chairman, we are ready to move
8 with the special order.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I have two inquiries. Does
10 anybody have any information, Commissioner Nabors, I
11 understood you had made a call this morning to determine
12 the status of Commissioner Sundberg's son?
13 COMMISSIONER NABORS: I have no information, I'm
14 trying to make some calls now to see what I can find out.
15 I'll keep trying to find out in the morning.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So you know, for those of you who
17 were not here earlier in the week, Commissioner Sundberg's
18 son is seriously ill with cancer, and he's been absent
19 this week. And we all give him prayers for that in our
20 respective ways and continue to do so for Commissioner
21 Sundberg and his family.
22 Also, I understand that there are certain members of
23 the Commission that are not in good physical condition
24 this morning from having stayed up too late with the
25 DoubleTree gang. If anybody would like to report on that,
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1 we would be glad to hear it, but probably it would be
2 better that it be done individually to us. I think the
3 leader of that group, or the two leaders were Commissioner
4 Freiden and Commissioner Mills. We welcome you this
5 morning, but we will also understand any problems you
6 might have. I did leave out Commissioner Smith, correct.
7 And if any of you want to join that group, I think they
8 have open membership for members of the Commission. Oh,
9 no, they just closed it. All right, so it's time to get
10 going. Yes, Commissioner Anthony.
11 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: I am not a member of that
12 group, I was working and reading my documents last night.
13 But I would like to rise and recognize one of our members
14 that is celebrating his 40th birthday today, and that's
15 Commissioner Scott. And I would like for us to, with you
16 in the lead, Mr. Chairman, to sing happy birthday to
17 Commissioner Scott.
18 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Can we make sure the cameras are
19 on?
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We believe in proof in packaging
21 here. The 40 receives some skepticism, Commissioner
22 Scott. That meant you went to the Florida Senate when you
23 were 12 years old, and we are all proud you are so well
24 preserved; it works all right. Close enough for
25 government work he says. Well, I'm not much at singing,
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1 you know, but I'm willing to do it. Or we can wait and do
2 it tonight when we are in a more jovial mood, whichever
3 you prefer.
4 All right, we have taken care of all of the pleasures
5 now, I think. Commissioner Barkdull, am I right that the
6 matters on reconsideration are going to be taken up later
7 in the day?
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir, I move that they be
9 deferred until later in the calendar at the call of the
10 Chair.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, it is so
12 ordered. According to what I've been furnished, our first
13 proposal for consideration today is 123 by Commissioner
14 Barkdull, which is in the orange book; is that correct?
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's what I've got on the
16 calendar here.
17 SECRETARY BLANTON: That's on reconsideration.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's on reconsideration?
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, special order starts on
20 the next column.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Proposal 91 by
22 Commissioner Hawkes, disapproved by the Committee on
23 Bonding and Investments, and it's on special order. Okay.
24 Would you read it please?
25 READING CLERK: Proposal 91, proposal to revise
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1 Article VII, s.4, Florida Constitution; providing for
2 certain pollution control devices to be classified by
3 general law and assessed solely on the basis of character
4 or use.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does anybody rise in
6 support of that? (No audible response.) Anybody wants to
7 speak in opposition? (No audible response.) If not,
8 unlock the machine and we'll proceed to vote. Lock the
9 machine and count the vote, announce the vote.
10 READING CLERK: One yea, 22 nays, Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Proposal fails. Now, Proposal
12 116 is the next one on special order and it's in the blue
13 book, it's by Commissioner Corr. And it was recommended
14 as a committee substitute and disapproved by the Committee
15 on Education. Would you read it, please?
16 READING CLERK: Committee substitute for Proposal
17 116, a proposal to revise Article IX, Florida
18 Constitution, revising Section 6 to provide funding for an
19 educational scholarship fund, adding Section 7 to
20 authorize the creation of an educational scholarship fund.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Corr,
22 you are recognized on this proposal, sir.
23 COMMISSIONER CORR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is
24 the proposal that expands the ability of the Legislature
25 to allocate state school funds to an educational
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1 scholarship fund. Currently, the Constitution limits the
2 funds only to the support and maintenance of free public
3 schools. What this proposal will do is also add the
4 words, And the educational scholarship fund. I have
5 finally found that in the blue book and it gives me some
6 time to get organized here.
7 So what this would allow, Mr. Chairman, is their
8 state funds to go into an educational scholarship fund.
9 The fund would be established by the Legislature. The way
10 the funds would be allocated out of that fund would also
11 be established in general law by the Legislature as well.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody have any
13 questions of Commissioner Corr? Any other proponents of
14 this proposal? Are there opponents that wish to be heard
15 on this proposal? If not, then we'll proceed to vote.
16 Open the machine. All right, lock the machines and
17 announce the vote.
18 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
19 READING CLERK: Ten yeas, 15 nays, Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So, Proposal 116 fails. The next
21 proposal is Proposal 135 by Commissioner Henderson that's
22 in the blue book, approved by the committee on finance and
23 tax, and consideration was deferred until today. Would
24 you read the -- read it please?
25 READING CLERK: Proposal 135, proposal to revise
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1 Article VII, s.4, Florida Constitution; adding lands used
2 for conservation purposes to those lands that may by law
3 be assessed for tax purposes on the basis of their
4 character or use.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
6 Henderson.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I am ready,
8 but my only question is whether or not Mr. Mills is going
9 to offer an amendment on his proposal. And if we are
10 still working on it, we'll TP it, otherwise we'll put it
11 on the board.
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, yesterday we
13 discussed the definition of conservation and we had two --
14 we have a lower assessment and we have an exemption both
15 being considered. And I know Senator Scott's staff is
16 working on that. I would suggest that maybe we TP it
17 until we get that definition back because I think with
18 what was raised --
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Scott,
20 do you think your staff will have information ready for
21 this afternoon?
22 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, no, we won't,
23 because what we are doing is we are having a meeting of
24 finance and tax week after next at which we are going to
25 take up this proposal as the one regarding the tax use has
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1 a major tax impact. So, I don't think we are going to
2 have a definition ready for today. I think the point is
3 the same words are used, the word conservation, and they
4 want to have words consistent with both his proposal and
5 Commissioner Mills' proposal.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Henderson.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, this is not a
8 pressing issue. Without objection, I would like to have
9 it removed from the special order calendar, place it on
10 the calendar, and we'll get all of the ducks in a row,
11 come back from committee and ask that it be put on special
12 order.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, that will be
14 done. It is done. Okay, Proposal No. 119, by
15 Commissioner Corr, disapproved by the committee on
16 education. Would you read it, please?
17 READING CLERK: Proposal 119, a proposal to revise
18 Article 9, s.6, Florida Constitution; amending the
19 eligibility requirements for receiving state school funds.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Corr.
21 COMMISSIONER CORR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This
22 proposal would expand the way we can appropriate state
23 school funds. Again, currently, it is limited to the
24 support and maintenance of free public schools. This
25 would allow the funds to also be allocated to any
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1 pre-kindergarten, kindergarten through grade 12, or any
2 school that accepts public funding and meets certain
3 standards of excellence that would be prescribed by the
4 Legislature.
5 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: All right. Any proponents?
6 Anybody from the committee want to respond? If not, we'll
7 proceed to vote.
8 (Vote taken and recroded electronically.)
9 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Has everybody voted?
10 Announce the vote.
11 READING CLERK: Fourteen yeas, 14 nays, Mr. Chairman.
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It fails. Move next to
13 Proposal 107 by Commissioner Connor, which was disapproved
14 by the Committee on Declaration of Rights. Would you read
15 it, please?
16 READING CLERK: Proposal 107, a proposal to revise
17 Article I, Florida Constitution; providing that the State
18 Constitution does not restrict the right of parents to
19 consent to medical treatment for their minor children.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans, is this the
21 proposal that you wanted to be heard in conjunction with a
22 later proposal or following a later proposal?
23 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Just that it be heard first.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So, you are willing
25 to proceed then?
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1 COMMISSIONER EVANS: This is Commissioner Connor's,
2 and I needed his to go first.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor, you are open
4 to present the proposal.
5 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 Ladies and gentlemen, my wife and I have four children.
7 Two are prone to get headaches and two are prone to give
8 them. Since we are on television, I won't tell you which
9 ones do what, but if you are watching at home, you know
10 who you are.
11 But ladies and gentlemen, I can tell you that it has
12 been a common occurrence for those kids who get headaches,
13 for me to get a call at the office from the school nurse.
14 And when I come on the line, a very nice lady will
15 typically say, Mr. Connor, I'm sorry to disturb you at
16 home, but so and so is in the clinic, and they are lying
17 down with a headache, and I wonder if it would be all
18 right for me to give them some Tylenol.
19 Whenever my kids go off on a school field trip, my
20 wife and I always have to sign a written consent
21 authorizing them to go and to participate on that trip.
22 Amazing though it may be, if a minor child wishes to
23 obtain an abortion in the State of Florida, she does not
24 need her parents' consent. Indeed, there's not even a
25 requirement in Florida that her parents be notified.
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1 But in the event that child suffers complications
2 arising out of that abortion, before the hospital will
3 treat that child, she has to receive her parents' consent.
4 And of course, her parents are responsible for the bills.
5 Ladies and gentlemen, common sense tells us that that
6 ought not to be. What this bill does -- what this
7 proposal does, very simply, is to provide the
8 constitutional footing for the Legislature of the State of
9 Florida to pass parental consent legislation if it chooses
10 to do so.
11 Now, most ordinary folks would be surprised to learn
12 that the Legislature does not have the requisite
13 constitutional footing to pass such a law, but it does not
14 because in 1989 the Florida Supreme Court ruled in the TW
15 case, in the process of striking down a parental consent
16 statute, that the State lacked a compelling interest
17 sufficient to warrant the passage of parental consent
18 legislation.
19 And the hue and cry about parents' rights to consent
20 to medical treatment for their child, particularly as it
21 relates to abortion, has not died down in the decade that
22 has followed, and understandably so. Because most
23 Floridians, in fact, back at the time that this bill was
24 passed, about 78 percent of Floridians were shown to be in
25 support of a parental consent bill.
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1 Most Floridians believed, the overwhelming majority,
2 believed that the people who know their children best and
3 love them most, the parents, ought to be permitted under
4 the law to give their consent prior to the rendition of
5 medical treatment for that child. And you all heard the
6 testimony, I thought very compelling testimony, of Dr.
7 James down in Gainesville about the important role that
8 parents play about providing medical history and other
9 information with respect to the treatment of that child.
10 Ladies and gentlemen, by today we have received over
11 five -- we have heard from over 5,000 Floridians who have
12 urged us to pass Proposal No. 107. I'm not aware that we
13 have heard from that many on any other single issue. This
14 is an issue that's very easily understood by the people of
15 Florida, this is an issue that requires a constitutional
16 fix in light of the ruling of TW, and this is a provision
17 that reason and common sense dictate that we ought to
18 pass.
19 And ladies and gentlemen, I would submit to you that
20 there is no, and ought to be, no more important priority
21 before this body than taking the necessary steps to
22 restore the rights of parents to make this important
23 decision on behalf of their children.
24 What this amendment does, very simply, is as follows:
25 It creates a new Section 26, Article I, which reads as
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1 follows, Nothing in this Constitution shall be deemed to
2 restrict a parents' right to consent to medical treatment,
3 included but not limited to abortion for a minor child, as
4 permitted by the United States Constitution. This state
5 has a compelling interest in protecting the rights of
6 parents to make such decisions for their minor children.
7 Ladies and gentlemen, this provision is not
8 self-executing. If you pass this proposal, it will not
9 require parental consent before a minor can obtain an
10 abortion in the State of Florida, but it will put the ball
11 in the Legislature's court and we can have the public
12 debate and we can hear the kind of testimony that we ought
13 to hear and all of the various people that have interests
14 in this legislation can come before the Legislature, let
15 their voices be heard, the democratic process can operate
16 and the Legislature can and will act in accordance with
17 its wisdom having been duly instructed by the people on
18 this issue.
19 But because of the TW case, the hands of the
20 Legislature are tied, and the Legislature simply lacks the
21 constitutional foundation to go forward. And so the hue
22 and cry continues.
23 Ladies and gentlemen, yesterday we talked about the
24 partial birth abortion procedure. I was interested in,
25 Mr. Zack, to read last night in U.S. News and Report,
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1 commenting on nonmedical, late term, partial birth
2 abortions that are carried out. And one southern clinic
3 stated, Our biggest group is 10 to 18-year olds in total
4 denial. In other words, these are young folks who just
5 don't accept, can't accept, haven't accepted the fact that
6 they are pregnant, find themselves at a late stage of
7 pregnancy, and then without a parent's knowledge or
8 consent, an abortionist can perform a late-term, partial
9 birth abortion.
10 I would submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, that
11 that just doesn't make sense, plain and simple. We in
12 Florida are concerned about the breakup of families, we in
13 Florida have expressed our concern about the affects of
14 dysfunctional families and the impact on our society, and
15 I would submit to you that government has contributed, in
16 part, to the breakdown of the family. And the TW decision
17 is an example of how that occurs, even I would suggest,
18 perhaps, with the best of motives on the part of our
19 court.
20 But when you strip away a parent's rights to make a
21 decision of a medical nature on behalf of their child,
22 then government has interposed itself into the family and
23 come between the traditional parent/child relationship and
24 significantly altered the family dynamics that
25 historically and traditionally have taken place.
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1 Ladies and gentlemen, that ought not to be. We ought
2 to reestablish the traditional relationship that's existed
3 from time out of mind in which parents make these kinds of
4 important decisions for their children. I think it's
5 important for you to understand that under the
6 constitutional regime of cases established by the United
7 States Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court has
8 declared that states may enact parental consent
9 legislation.
10 And under the case of Bellotti versus Baird, the
11 court has said, In order to pass Federal constitutional
12 muster, any parental consent legislation must provide for
13 what's known as a judicial bypass mechanism where a young
14 girl can dispense, with the permission of the court, with
15 her parents' consent to an abortion. One of two things
16 has to be established. First of all, the Court has to
17 find that the child is sufficiently mature to make her own
18 decision in that regard, or secondly, in the alternative,
19 that it is in the child's best interest that the abortion
20 take place.
21 Mr. Zack asked me earlier about instances where the
22 child was fearful of retribution or violence and that sort
23 of thing. And the Bellotti case and its prodigy has said
24 that this judicial bypass system is required to pass
25 Federal constitutional muster.
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1 In the TW case, the Florida Supreme Court identified
2 two additional requirements that would be necessary beyond
3 what was provided in the statute that was at issue there,
4 and that was that there be a record of the proceeding and
5 that there be a provision for the appointment of counsel.
6 Bellotti requires an expedited proceeding. The Florida
7 statute, as I recall, had a 24-hour period. Perhaps it
8 was 48 hours within which the hearing had to take place.
9 Ladies and gentlemen, because we have an explicit
10 privacy right, and because the Court concluded that since
11 the parental consent statute burdens a minor's decision
12 making -- even before the child is viable, that it was
13 unconstitutional and the State did not have that
14 compelling interest.
15 I ask you, ladies and gentlemen, what more compelling
16 interest could the State have than of protecting the
17 rights of parents to make decisions for their minor
18 children in this very, very important area of medical
19 care. We know that abortion is a surgical procedure, that
20 it's fraught with risks, that there are physical and
21 psychological consequences that may flow out of that
22 procedure.
23 We simply must do the right thing here. And the
24 right thing is to protect the rights of parents in making
25 these decisions. A minor child in 1988 when this bill was
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1 passed, believe it or not, a minor child would go into a
2 clinic for an abortion, which from a regulatory standpoint
3 did not have the health and sanitation requirements of a
4 veterinary clinic in the State of Florida. And the reason
5 for that, very simply, is that almost all regulations that
6 had been passed by the Legislature or the administrative
7 bodies had been -- with respect to abortion clinics, had
8 been enjoined from enforcement.
9 Ladies and gentlemen, this just doesn't make sense.
10 Parents are the people who know their children best and
11 who love them most. There is a provision in the rare case
12 where parents are to -- where it's determined that parents
13 couldn't be involved or shouldn't be involved or where
14 it's in the best interest of the child to dispense with
15 the consent of the parents or where she's deemed to be
16 sufficiently mature to make that decision.
17 Any bill the Florida Legislature passes in this
18 regard must meet those requirements. It must meet the
19 other due process requirements that are set forth by our
20 Florida Supreme Court, but it can do nothing unless we
21 provide the constitutional foundation.
22 Chairman Smith of the Declaration of Rights Committee
23 has rightly posited a question on this floor and it's been
24 posited over and over again in our Declaration of Rights
25 Committee, about whether or not the Constitution is the
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1 appropriate vehicle to effect the change that is at issue.
2 We are not a super Legislature and we shouldn't be
3 carrying forth a legislative agenda.
4 Ladies and gentlemen, a constitutional fix is
5 required. The people of Florida earnestly want it, they
6 understand it, and we ought to do it. Thank you. Thank
7 you, Mr. Chairman.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Freiden.
9 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Mr. Connor, Commissioner
10 Connor, I agree with one thing that you said, we must do
11 the right thing here. I disagree with almost everything
12 else that was just said. And I rise at this moment to
13 urge you all to vote against this proposal. This proposal
14 presents a drastic incursion into the right of privacy of
15 girls in the State of Florida. And I submit to you that
16 it really does nothing to increase the rights of parents
17 that already exist, because parents in our state do have
18 presently the right to consent to medical treatment for
19 their children.
20 Now, what we need to start out with is, what are we
21 talking about here? We are not talking about parents
22 being involved in decision-making of their children, what
23 we are talking about, and I wrote down very carefully what
24 has been said by the proponent of this measure. What we
25 are talking about is we want -- is whether parents have
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1 the right to make decisions for their children. And what
2 we are talking about here and what you are being asked to
3 vote on is a provision that would give to parents the
4 right to make a decision for a girl who may be about to
5 bear a child that is going to be her daughter and her
6 responsibility for the rest of her life, or who she is
7 going to then have to give up for adoption and live with
8 that trauma for the rest of her life.
9 So, we are not talking here about having parents --
10 about requiring the parents be involved in a decision, we
11 are talking about having parents be able to make a
12 decision.
13 Let's talk about what the law is at the present time.
14 In the State of Florida, an abortion cannot be performed
15 without the informed consent of the woman seeking the
16 abortion. Under Florida Statute 390.0111, a termination
17 of pregnancy can't be performed unless there is an
18 informed consent, a voluntary and informed written consent
19 of the pregnant woman. Or in the case of somebody who is
20 not competent to consent, a court-appointed guardian.
21 Now, of course, that could be a parent, and in the
22 vast majority of cases, it is the parent that consents to
23 the abortion. Let's talk about those numbers. You know,
24 this is not a situation where this is -- this is something
25 that we don't have any data on. There is experience, we
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1 have experience in states like ours where informed consent
2 is not required. We have experience in states like ours,
3 like other states, like Minnesota, like Massachusetts,
4 where consent -- where parental consent is required. And
5 we know from that experience that, in both kinds of
6 states, states that have parental consent law and states
7 that don't have parental consent laws, that about
8 60 percent of all abortions of girls under the age of 18
9 are performed with parental involvement.
10 Now, we say 60 percent. Well, gee, what about the
11 other 40? The reality is, let's first talk about what the
12 numbers are. Your concern, I know, is about that 10, 11,
13 12, 13-year old child. Over 90 percent of those girls
14 have parental involvement in their abortions, those girls.
15 And it happens to be, by the way, a very small number of
16 the abortions that are performed on very young girls. In
17 the under 16 years old, it's 75 percent. So we are
18 talking, again, about a very small percentage of the
19 abortions that are performed.
20 Now, let's talk about why the girls who don't get
21 their parents involved don't get their parents involved.
22 The reasons are clear, they are fearful, their parents are
23 ill or alcoholic, or not there, they are afraid of hurting
24 their parents, they are afraid of what their parents might
25 do to them. In one-third of the girls who don't involve
25
1 their parents, there has been family violence inside their
2 home, and they fear that that violence will be directed
3 toward them. And that fear is statistically borne out,
4 because the statistics with regard to family violence
5 establish that in -- that during times of pregnancy in a
6 household violence increases dramatically; it is the most
7 stressful time in a household. So the likelihood of
8 violence toward children in a household where there is
9 violence increases dramatically in situations where the
10 child is pregnant.
11 The other thing that I found interesting as I was
12 researching this and reading articles on it is that in
13 more than 90 percent of the cases where girls don't
14 involve their parents, they do involve some other
15 responsible adult who is not a clinic -- a person from the
16 clinic, not a clinic personnel. So, again, we are talking
17 about a very, very small percentage of the girls.
18 Now, we have heard about the argument that we require
19 consent for an aspirin in school, but we don't require
20 consent for an abortion. I submit to you that that's
21 really not -- it is a false argument in the sense that --
22 a child could go to the drugstore and buy aspirin, that's
23 simply a liability issue. And that really isn't -- it
24 isn't an argument that you should be relying on.
25 (Pause.)
26
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
2 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I'm taking a deep breath, sir.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Excuse me, I was engaged in a
4 conversation there.
5 (Laughter.)
6 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: We have heard that we should
7 be concerned about the breakup of families in our state.
8 I submit to you that our approval of this amendment to go
9 on the ballot would have absolutely nothing to do with the
10 breakup of families in this state and would not help one
11 iota. The numbers of girls who communicate with their
12 parents are virtually identical in states that have
13 parental consent laws and in states that don't have
14 parental consent laws. You cannot legislate, you cannot
15 constitutionally require, nor can the Legislature
16 legislate a -- that a daughter talk to her parents. Girls
17 that are inclined to talk to their parents are going to
18 talk to their parents. The ones that aren't inclined to
19 talk to their parents are going to take matters into their
20 own hands and handle it with -- to the best of their
21 maturity and their ability.
22 Now, how does that -- what do we know about what
23 happens in other states? We know that in the State of
24 Massachusetts, in the first eight months of their parental
25 consent law, that approximately 30 percent of the girls
27
1 who had -- who became pregnant went out of state to get
2 abortions. In Massachusetts, that's easy, and in North
3 Florida that's easy too. We also know that when
4 abortion -- when girls can't obtain legal abortions in
5 clinics or from their physicians, we know from the history
6 that we, I think all of us in this room have lived
7 through, that they pop up all over the place, illegal ways
8 of getting abortions.
9 And we know that when those illegal abortions are
10 available and the girls get them that they are fraught
11 with danger, that they don't have the -- they were often
12 performed by people who aren't even physicians. And that
13 puts our daughters at tremendous risk, physical risk, that
14 they would not otherwise experience if they could go and
15 have a legal abortion.
16 We also know that if we require -- and we know this
17 from the experience in the states that have it, that
18 requiring parental consent causes girls to delay getting
19 an abortion. The medical evidence -- it is absolutely
20 clear that the later the term, the later in the term, in
21 the pregnancy that the abortion is performed, the more
22 dangerous it is and the riskier it is to the girls who are
23 getting the abortions.
24 If a girl is required to go to court or to -- and
25 needs to, and finds impediments to getting the abortion at
28
1 an early stage, she runs the risk of being forced into a
2 second trimester abortion, which then becomes quite
3 dangerous.
4 Now, what we are doing here, if we were to pass this,
5 and then the Legislature -- and if the Legislature then
6 would follow up with legislation, would be to put a court
7 in a position where the Court could make the decision for
8 a young woman to have an abortion, whether or not she
9 could have the abortion. The Court's decision would be
10 based on the girl's maturity and whether it was in her
11 best interest, but it would not require parental
12 involvement.
13 I don't see -- I cannot imagine what this has to do
14 with how this would advance family relationships or
15 parental rights because it would then be the Court that
16 makes the decision. What we are doing, simply, because we
17 now have a situation where the doctor makes the decision
18 about the maturity and the competency of the girl, and if
19 she's not competent to consent, she obtains a -- she gets
20 a legal guardian. What we are doing is we are simply
21 substituting a court's judgment for the judgment of the
22 pregnant girl and her physician. What that is is an
23 intrusion into her rights of privacy.
24 You have also heard about the risks of an abortion.
25 The risk of an abortion is infinitesimal compared to the
29
1 risk of a pregnancy. The risk of an abortion is about
2 half of the risk of getting a shot of penicillin or having
3 your tonsils out. It is not a particularly risky
4 procedure.
5 Now, we have heard that parents know their children
6 best and they love them the most. I could not agree more
7 that that's true. I guess there were two things that were
8 said that I agree with. But the parents who love their
9 children the most and know them the best are not the
10 parents that this is going to affect, because those
11 parents are going to be in the 60 or 75 or 90 percent of
12 the parents whose children do come to them, do involve
13 them in the decision, do consult with them.
14 The parents -- the children who are going to be very
15 negatively impacted by this, the girls who are going to be
16 very negatively impacted by this are the girls of parents
17 who can't be consulted, either they are not around, the
18 children are living with somebody that's not their parent,
19 they are -- I think that this particular proposal is
20 somewhat vague and would cause concern about, what if a
21 child was living with one parent and the other parent --
22 does the other parent then have the right to consent?
23 What if the other parent isn't around, the child hasn't
24 seen the other parent and the parent shows up and wants to
25 consent? It's fraught with all kinds of problems that
30
1 would come up if we allow this to be on the ballot.
2 I submit to all of you that we must do the right
3 thing in this case. The right thing in this case is to
4 preserve the right to privacy of all of the women of this
5 state and especially of the girls of this state, with
6 regard to this proposal. Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
8 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, members of the
9 Commission, slightly unlike Commissioner Freiden, I agreed
10 with a great number of things that Commissioner Connor
11 said. I first agree that no group is better, no unit is
12 better than the family to deal with the issues of the
13 family, no one -- no possible advice could be better.
14 I secondly agree that younger people, whether they be
15 men or women, don't always make the best judgments. I
16 third agree that common sense should control how we act on
17 issues of this import. Fourth, I agree that government
18 shouldn't be intervening in our private lives. And I
19 agree with those that say judicial intervention is not the
20 answer to personal family issues.
21 Let's first determine exactly what this proposal
22 does. It doesn't only authorize parental consent, if you
23 look at the language, it says, Including but not limited
24 to abortion. I think, and I submit to you, this leaves an
25 area of uncertain and undetermined consequences which we
31
1 have to think about, even ones that might be totally
2 opposite of those intended by the proponents. What if a
3 young girl, living apart from her parents, was pregnant
4 and wanted to have a child and she needed medical
5 procedures in order for her to have that child? What if
6 her parents didn't want her to have that child? What if
7 they didn't consent? What if I, as a parent, sit down
8 with a daughter who may be pregnant and say, I believe we
9 should discuss this as a family thoroughly, however,
10 ultimately it's your decision and I'll support you in
11 whatever you do?
12 Now, you are going to tell me that the government is
13 going to tell me now I have to go and sign the consent
14 form. It seems to me, that's telling me that's how to run
15 my family by the Constitution. Let me give you a little
16 bit of history how parental consent got here because I
17 happen to know this one very well. House Bill 1668,
18 June 2nd, 1988, I was in the chair right down the hall
19 here and an amendment was introduced, the very statute
20 that we are considering, the word statute that in re TW
21 considered, parental consent. It was amended to abortion
22 licensing provisions.
23 There was a question as to whether that was in order.
24 And I could have ruled it out of order. I did not because
25 it was in order. There were a series of amendments that
32
1 were offered to that particular proposal which would have
2 basically weakened it or taken out the parental consent
3 provision. They all failed, the parental consent
4 provision passed. I ended up voting for the entire
5 package.
6 How else was I involved in this? I have heard a lot
7 about the history of privacy. The privacy amendment,
8 House Resolution 387, in 1978 was introduced. I
9 introduced it with the support of some very interesting
10 people, including Dempsey Barron, including Curt Kiser,
11 including Lee Moffitt, a fairly diverse group of people,
12 all believing that individual privacy was something
13 important enough to put in Florida's Constitution.
14 The Supreme Court took that privacy provision, which
15 by the way, was most of the discussion related to
16 informational privacy? Probably. Was there any
17 discussion that related to abortion? Absolutely.
18 Senator Dunn who pointed out several times, and I
19 think ultimately voted against it, said this issue will
20 deal with abortion. Was the Court right when it said that
21 the people of Florida wanted to have additional privacy
22 protections? I think so. I think so. And was its
23 decisions correct? I think so as well.
24 So, that puts us in a position to be considering
25 whether to overrule this history, both of the privacy
33
1 amendment and of the Court's decision and interpretation.
2 If it were logical to do so, maybe we should consider it.
3 But what I have heard Commissioner Freiden say and what I
4 also believe is the logic of telling a pregnant child that
5 she has to communicate with her parents has little impact
6 that she's not going to do it. We can't look to the
7 statute books to solve problems of our family, of our
8 community and of our state. It is illogical to think that
9 our passing statute will change the conduct of a young
10 girl.
11 Our society has much higher responsibilities to do
12 that, and maybe you did a good job with that when we
13 talked about education yesterday. So, what will she do?
14 She'll do exactly what Commissioner Freiden suggested. If
15 she can't seek a legal abortion, she'll seek an illegal
16 abortion. And as shocked and horrified as I was yesterday
17 to hear the details of partial birth abortion, I think we
18 would be as shocked and horrified to hear the details of
19 illegal abortions.
20 So, we are condemning our young girls to face as bad
21 as we heard yesterday. I think it is the responsibility
22 of this Commission to be logical, to stay out of
23 intervening with the family, and to adhere to a principle
24 I heard many of you articulate. And that is, the
25 Constitution is not a place for us to intervene in family
34
1 life.
2 I read -- I almost feel like Commissioner Brochin
3 sometimes -- I didn't really read the whole thing. These
4 are the Bill of Rights. They spent all of their time
5 talking about how to protect people from government, not
6 about how in the Constitution to tell people how to live
7 in their private lives. And it also seems to me the
8 principle that you-all have talked about and we have
9 shared, judicial intervention; what could be more judicial
10 intervention than to have a bypass proceeding dealing with
11 the personal life of a young girl? That's judicial
12 intervention.
13 But lastly, if you really consider what the Bill of
14 Rights is about and what the Declaration of Rights is
15 about, it's about protecting those that need protection.
16 It is not the 5,000 letters, it is not the polls, it is
17 maybe those few girls, maybe it was TW, maybe it was the
18 girl that we heard about in Gainesville who couldn't go to
19 her parents because the parents, the father, the abusing
20 father, was the cause of the pregnancy.
21 Our duty is to protect them, our duty is to protect
22 those that can't be protected. And the only way that we
23 can do that is maintain their right to privacy, not
24 intervene in their personal lives and to defeat this
25 amendment.
35
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley.
2 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I would like to speak in favor
3 of the amendment. You know, Commissioner Mills, the
4 problem is, that young woman, be her, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15,
5 isn't competent to make that decision. And if she were,
6 she probably wouldn't be in that problem to start with.
7 And I would submit to you that she has a lot more problems
8 than just that pregnancy, she has deep emotional problems,
9 she has perhaps psychiatric problems. It isn't going to
10 be cured by that abortion. And, you know, six months
11 later she's going to be back in the same position.
12 If she isn't competent under the proposal that
13 Commissioner Connor is proffering, the judicial bypass is
14 there. If a parent, as in the Gainesville case, is so
15 involved, and he in fact were the father, judicial bypass
16 is there, and she would be advised of that.
17 You know, this child can't make any other decision.
18 She can't drive a car, she can't vote, she can't hold a
19 license to fly an airplane or sell real estate or do
20 anything else, she can't choose the public school that she
21 attends, she can't choose her teachers, she can't even
22 choose to take an aspirin at school if she wanted one.
23 She can't choose her own physician for any other medical
24 purpose, but for this, she can choose to do this.
25 And the counseling, and, Commissioner Freiden,
36
1 informed consent is a joke when the counselor is on the
2 payroll of the doctor that is going to do the abortion,
3 who has car payments, and mortgage payments, and overhead,
4 and competition. If many of those nurses turned away
5 these children, there wouldn't be a business there and
6 that nurse wouldn't last very long as counseling for
7 informed consent.
8 There's an interesting case that followed the TW case
9 that some of you may not know about. Both of these cases,
10 ironically, originated in Lake County where I'm from, and
11 both came out of the Circuit Court Judge Locket. And
12 Judge Locket made the original decision, had another case
13 come before him where there were two 15-year old girls had
14 run off for the weekend with two 19 or 20-year old boys,
15 and they had cohabited over at Daytona Beach and had a
16 good time, but when they got back, the parents of the
17 girls did not think they should have had such a good time,
18 and they brought statutory rape charges against the boys.
19 Now, if you were Judge Locket, who rendered and had
20 the Supreme Court render the TW decision, is it not only
21 logical that, surely, if a 13-year old girl could choose
22 to have an abortion under the right of privacy, she
23 certainly could choose to have sex under the right of
24 privacy without parental intervention or state
25 intervention. But somehow, this same court decided that,
37
1 no, that's different, that she cannot choose to have sex
2 at 15, but she can choose to have an abortion at 13.
3 What was really at issue is the prevailing political
4 currents of the right of choice. But anyway, Commissioner
5 Freiden, it's amazing that you can talk so casually about
6 percentages. Let me suggest to you, you say 10 percent of
7 these children -- only 10 percent don't have parental
8 consent anyway. Let me suggest to you, if that child was
9 your child, that statistic is 100 percent, and that is the
10 child that suffers.
11 You know, it may well be by requiring the parental
12 consent, by requiring that youngster to either go to a
13 judge or to go to her parents to have consent, this may be
14 the crisis that brings that family back together, this may
15 be parents who are so busy in their world that they don't
16 realize their child has these problems. They need to know
17 that. They need to have this confrontation. And in most
18 families, I would suggest to you, that there would be a
19 reconciliation of that family and a working out of those
20 problems.
21 You know, the right of choice for an adult woman is
22 something that's pretty much water over the dam. And I
23 don't really understand the adult woman fearing this as
24 being an intrusion into that right. I don't agree with
25 that right, never have, but it's there and that's morally
38
1 accepted.
2 But, you know, there's -- Mr. Mills, Commissioner
3 Mills, you talk about government intervention. Clarence
4 Thomas, I guess, talks a lot about the natural law.
5 Government intervened when it said TW could have an
6 abortion, that was the first government intervention,
7 because the natural law says that that parent has the
8 right to make those decisions for that child. All we are
9 trying to do is lessen that government intervention and
10 give those rights back to the parents where they naturally
11 belong.
12 Commissioner Freiden, you use the word "adoption"
13 like it is a bad word. Let me tell you from the practice
14 of law, that is one of the most joyous things a lawyer
15 gets to do, is to have an adoption. And there are
16 thousands and thousands of families waiting right now,
17 good, solid families who would give good homes to these
18 children.
19 When I first started practicing in the small town of
20 Claremont, I would get six or seven of these unwanted
21 pregnancies a year where I would come in and help place
22 the children. And, by the way, I do it without a fee. I
23 think it is a great thing, it is great for the kids, it is
24 great for the parents who receive them.
25 Now, I think I had one this last year, and before
39
1 that, it's been years since I have had one because they
2 are all going down to the clinic and disposing of them,
3 and those families aren't getting those children and those
4 children aren't getting life.
5 Is it a constitutional issue, Commissioner Mills, it
6 certainly is because it was the Constitution upon which
7 the good Justice relied to say that TW could have the
8 abortion. So, definitely it is a constitutional issue.
9 We are not passing that, we are just saying to the people
10 of Florida, the same things you are going to hear a
11 thousand times between now and May, let the people decide.
12 This is an issue whereby the Constitution has been
13 used as a groundwork to take away a natural right of
14 parents, let's put the right in there, if the Legislature
15 so chooses, to reverse that and give that natural right
16 back to the parents. Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley.
18 Well, she has a question of Commissioner Langley.
19 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Commissioner Langley, if a
20 13-year old child has been impregnated by her stepfather,
21 or by an adult male, is there any provision in the law
22 that requires the abortion provider to turn that
23 information in to the authorities?
24 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I don't know. I know that if
25 school authorities have that knowledge they have to turn
40
1 it in. I do not know whether or not the abortion clinics
2 are so regulated.
3 COMMISSIONER EVANS: So if someone does not turn in
4 this situation, then this is a protection against child
5 abusers and statutory rape?
6 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I would think so. And again,
7 by requiring parental consent, if the child sought
8 judicial intervention, which can be constitutionally met,
9 then the facts would come out in front of the Judge and
10 charges against that abusive parent would follow.
11 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now Commissioner Riley.
13 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Commissioners, this is not a
14 problem in a perfect family because in a perfect family
15 there are no pregnancies except those within that family.
16 However, we all know that there are no prefect families,
17 and that it doesn't matter how many bedrooms your house
18 has and how many square feet it has, unwanted pregnancies
19 happen everywhere. And in a perfect family, no matter
20 where that pregnancy happens, this is not an issue because
21 in a perfect family, there is communication. And in a
22 perfect family, the child can go to her parents and say, I
23 have got a problem and I need your help.
24 And as Commissioner Freidin said, in children under
25 16, 90 percent of those girls do that. As you get into
41
1 the 16 and 17-year olds, it is up to 80 percent do that.
2 I fail to see how putting roadblocks in the way of a young
3 girl who does not come from a family that can communicate,
4 who does not come from a family that she has no fear that
5 telling her parents about a pregnancy is not going to
6 result in harm to her. I don't understand how putting
7 those roadblocks in the way of that young girl is going to
8 make communication in that family any better.
9 Commissioner Langley talks about adoption. Adoption
10 is a joyful, wonderful thing. I have a nephew who is
11 adopted, I know children who are adopted. But it is
12 joyful for the receiving end. It is not a joyful
13 experience for the child that has to bear that baby; that
14 is not where the joy is. I have read letters from young
15 girls, letters were sent to me by a friend of mine who is
16 executive director of a women's health clinic. And they
17 were written by the girls that we are talking about.
18 And the young girls say, Thank God I had this option.
19 I wanted to tell my parents, I could not tell my parents.
20 My father was not there, my mother was not there, I was
21 fearful that if anything -- if I were to tell my parents,
22 they would kill me. Now that could mean physical abuse
23 and really hurting that child, or it could mean that they
24 would have been so incredibly disappointed that they would
25 be hurt. But the child's perception was that they simply
42
1 could not do that, and they were very glad that they had
2 an option.
3 There is nobody in this room that is not concerned
4 with the family. There is nobody in this room that
5 doesn't believe that if your daughter, and I have five of
6 them, if your daughter is pregnant they are going to come
7 to you because you have that relationship with your
8 daughter, you have a more perfect family than the other
9 people that would be affected by this. And those that are
10 affected by this are not going to be helped by this
11 proposal, they are not going to be helped by putting in
12 the Constitution a requirement that says the government is
13 going to tell you who you have to involve in your
14 decision.
15 I'm telling you, this is not the place in this
16 Constitution to put communications in a better light and
17 make better communications in the family. That is not
18 what this does, this makes it harder. And I can't think
19 of more pressure on a family, if you have already got a
20 precarious situation, than for a young girl to come home
21 and say, I'm pregnant. That's not going to help anything,
22 that's going to make it worse. And I think we do, the
23 children and the citizens of this state, a disservice if
24 we were to put this on the ballot, and I strongly suggest
25 that we do not.
43
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans.
2 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Another question. Commissioner
3 Riley.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She yields for a question.
5 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Would you believe that a mother
6 giving up her child for adoption can indeed be a great
7 joy?
8 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Oh, I'm sure that's true.
9 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay.
10 COMMISSIONER RILEY: But I can almost guarantee you
11 that the majority of the young women that give their
12 babies up for adoption are not joyful about that
13 experience.
14 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay. Let me give you two
15 specific cases that I know of. One happened two years ago
16 almost, this April, where the young girl in the hospital
17 room handed her little baby girl over to the adoptive
18 parents, good friends of mine, and with tears in her eyes
19 she said, Please take good care of my little girl. She
20 was so happy that she had given life to her child and that
21 she was giving her child a happy life.
22 The second example is my own situation. The birth
23 mother of my daughter Susan said, I love this child so
24 much, the least that I can do for her is to give her a
25 chance in life.
44
1 I submit that adoption is joyful on both sides. I
2 don't know how much joy a young mother takes in knowing
3 and living with that knowledge that she herself has killed
4 that life, how much trauma she goes through. But I know
5 from personal experience, and I deal with a lot of
6 adoptive families. I must admit, I don't know about the
7 families that have to live with abortion, necessarily,
8 because they choose to live with that terror in silence
9 for many years, but I do know -- and I would like you to
10 believe that.
11 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I do believe that. And the
12 beauty of that is that those women who had those children
13 were able to have those children, were able to give those
14 babies up for adoption, and at the beginning of their
15 pregnancy they had a choice. That's what's beautiful
16 about that.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Connor,
18 do you want to close? Excuse me, Commissioner West wants
19 to be recognized.
20 COMMISSIONER WEST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You
21 know, 7 months ago I was sworn in as a Commissioner and
22 you got -- you know, especially this past week I have
23 looked over bills, I am kind of a layman at this. And I
24 see a lot of expertise in so many different areas. Areas
25 that have to do with the state attorneys, areas that have
45
1 to do with the judiciary, water management districts,
2 things that I'm just, you know, I'm just an average,
3 everyday guy. And I'll tell you, what I had to do,
4 Commissioner Anthony, is I had to go back and look at the
5 bill and rely very heavily on, you know, what the staff
6 said would be the effects of the changes.
7 There is not a lot of this that I really have a lot
8 of expert, you know, feelings about. I'm going to tell
9 you something about a dad. See, I disagree in an area
10 with some of the comments that were made because, to me,
11 this is not an issue of abortion. What this is is the
12 issue of a parent's right, you know. And the State
13 Supreme Court has ruled that a minor child can have a
14 medical procedure without parental consent.
15 What if you had a minor son -- let's forget about
16 abortion, let's talk about a minor son. You have a son
17 that's maybe 12 or 13-years old and he is sexually active.
18 And his buddy at school says, Hey, go get a vasectomy, you
19 get a vasectomy you don't have to worry about getting
20 anybody pregnant. In real life, I can picture that
21 happening. Does that young man get to go and get this
22 vasectomy without parental consent?
23 The United States Supreme Court has set out the
24 guidelines. It is not as if what we are trying to do is
25 real radical or anything. The U.S. Supreme Court has
46
1 said, If these two provisions -- if I'm correct,
2 Commissioner Connor -- if these two provisions are in --
3 or these two things are provided for then it would pass
4 constitutional muster. And this is with the present day
5 United States Supreme Court.
6 I'm going to tell you something. I don't know
7 exactly how this body is going to vote, but I'll guarantee
8 you how it will fare in the marketplace. Because I'm
9 telling you, for 15 years I have worked -- I have worked
10 with children in children's ministries, outreach
11 ministries, that cover a wide gamut of children. These
12 aren't just children from functional families, the
13 majority are children from dysfunctional families.
14 And I'll tell you what, the issue of parental
15 consent, and that to me is what this issue is. The issue
16 is not abortion. It affects abortion, it affects many
17 other medical procedures, but basically what it involves
18 is parental consent.
19 If you vote today -- really, I'm really glad about
20 the debate because you have made it very clear, there are
21 two schools of thought here. There is one school of
22 thought that says that kids are the responsibility of the
23 parent and there is another school of thought that says
24 that they are the responsibility of the State.
25 And I'll tell you what, I want to apologize to all of
47
1 the parents that I have worked with over the past 15 years
2 for being unable to be eloquent like many of you guys are,
3 but I'll tell you what, today when you place your vote,
4 you are placing it for parental consent. You are not
5 placing it for abortion, against abortion. Basically what
6 you are saying is that, you know, Paul West, and the rest
7 of you, you have -- you are the ones that we are going to
8 charge to be responsible for the upkeep of your kids and
9 you have the right to discuss any medical procedure that
10 has such severe consequences.
11 Now I urge you, I urge you to vote on the side of the
12 parents and not on the side of the State.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mathis. I don't
14 want to cut debate off, but if we could hold our remarks.
15 And that was a very appropriate argument. If we could
16 hold our remarks to two, three, four minutes it would be
17 helpful. Commissioner Mathis.
18 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: And, Mr. Chairman, I have only
19 looked at if there was a new point to be made in the
20 debate to make that.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I understand that.
22 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: And the point that I want to
23 make is who decides what's appropriate for a family and
24 what's not? Right now, we have a counselor in a school
25 who can decide what's a perfect family and what's not and
48
1 facilitate a young girl going to get an abortion,
2 subverting parental responsibility and authority. But let
3 her have a complication from that procedure and it would
4 be the parents' responsibility to handle that procedure,
5 to take care of that young girl, physically, to provide
6 her medical attention, physically. It is the parents'
7 responsibility then.
8 And I'm saying government has intervened all too
9 often. I have a daughter, and I don't want a counselor
10 deciding because my daughter is scared that I might punish
11 her, that she somehow can take her off and do -- and
12 facilitate getting her an abortion and bringing her back
13 to me to deal with the trauma, to deal with the
14 psychological effects, to deal with the long-term
15 consequences of that issue.
16 I am a parent and I think we ought to give the
17 parents a foundation upon which to deal with individual
18 issues. Not just parents, it is not just parents that are
19 affected when a young girl is pregnant, grandparents,
20 aunts and uncles, are all affected. And when you take
21 that out, when you take out that information flow from the
22 family to be able to deal with the true issues of the
23 minor children, you are allowing government to intervene
24 when government will not be able -- will not continue to
25 deal with all of the issues, but you are allowing them to
49
1 intervene and jump out. And I'm saying a parent should be
2 there whether the young girl is pregnant, whether she gets
3 an abortion, whether she has complications for the medical
4 issues.
5 Let's let them and allow them to be there when
6 decisions -- the decisions are made in the forefront. And
7 so I would vote, and I would urge you to vote in favor of
8 this. The other point I want to make again is we are not
9 voting up or down on an absolute. We are saying, this
10 issue is important; let the people of Florida decide if
11 parents should have constitutional authority to consent to
12 medical treatment for their children.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Zack. And you are
14 next, Commissioner Rundle.
15 COMMISSIONER ZACK: If Commissioner Freidin will
16 yield to a question.
17 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Of course.
18 COMMISSIONER ZACK: What is the experience in states
19 that have this legislation when minors went to court? Do
20 you have any statistics as to tell us what the courts did
21 in those cases?
22 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I have information from
23 Massachusetts and Minnesota, that in 12,000 court
24 petitions, 21 were denied and 10 of the denials were
25 overturned on appeal.
50
1 COMMISSIONER ZACK: In other words, only 21 times did
2 it come to court?
3 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: No, 12,000 petitions.
4 COMMISSIONER ZACK: 12,000 and only 21 had been
5 denied.
6 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: That's the information I have.
7 COMMISSIONER ZACK: So 10 total?
8 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: More or less.
9 COMMISSIONER ZACK: And of those 10 cases, what
10 happened in those cases is that the child wanted an
11 abortion and the parents said, You can't have an abortion,
12 and the child was in fact forced to carry?
13 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: No, I don't think so, because
14 I don't know the details of those 10 cases. But what I
15 understand to be the case is the parents aren't involved
16 in these judicial interventions.
17 See, this doesn't -- that's the thing that's
18 important about this is that the Supreme Court of the
19 United States has held that if you are going to have one
20 of these laws, you have got to allow a judicial bypass
21 bypassing the parent. That's why it is called judicial
22 bypass.
23 So what you are doing here is you are taking whatever
24 percentage of girls don't want to talk to their parents
25 and you are providing them a means where they don't have
51
1 to talk to their parents. And this really isn't about
2 what I said earlier, it is not about fostering
3 communication with families.
4 COMMISSIONER ZACK: I'm trying to understand what
5 happened to those 10 cases. In effect, the Court told a
6 child that went to court without notifying the family
7 that -- and the Court said, You cannot have an abortion,
8 you have to carry this child. And in those cases I don't
9 know if there was any follow-up as to whether the child
10 ultimately had conversations with the parents and decided
11 what to do that was different than the court decision, or
12 is there any information whatsoever regarding what
13 actually happened in those cases?
14 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I don't have any information.
15 COMMISSIONER ZACK: But if we pass this, a child
16 would be required to carry, a minor would be required to
17 give birth even if the minor, a 17-year old, chose that
18 they did not want to? If you have a parental consent law
19 to abortion, that's what I'm trying to be very clear
20 about -- and that would apply to everyone under 18?
21 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER ZACK: And you have a 17-year-old who
23 gets pregnant and goes to -- and wants an abortion and the
24 parents say, No, you can't have one, that 17-year-old has
25 to have the child, if we pass this; is that correct?
52
1 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: That is correct.
2 COMMISSIONER ZACK: That's what I'm trying to
3 understand. I hear no and I hear yes. I would like to
4 understand this before I vote on a very important
5 question.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Zack has the floor
7 and he yielded to Commissioner Freidin. Do you want to
8 speak, be recognized? Commissioner Kogan.
9 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: Let me just answer your question
10 as to what happened under the old Florida law that was
11 declared unconstitutional. It did not require the girl to
12 go to the parent at all and said that if the girl was
13 afraid to go to the parent and didn't want the parent to
14 know about this, that she could go directly to the Court
15 and then the Court could give the permission or deny the
16 permission. So the parents were not involved at all.
17 That's the way the old law worked.
18 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Are there states that have
19 parental notification as opposed to parental consent?
20 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER ZACK: How many states have parental
22 notification?
23 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I don't know the answer to
24 that, but it is a handful.
25 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to speak
53
1 to this issue.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have the floor.
3 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Frankly, I was not going to say
4 anything. I know that -- but when Mr. West made his
5 comments, I really feel necessary to rise to state my
6 position as it relates to this issue.
7 I know a lot of people didn't sleep for various
8 reasons last night but I will tell you that I didn't sleep
9 myself very much because of this particular issue. I
10 personally find this to be the most difficult issue that I
11 have had to deal with during the course of what have been
12 many, many very difficult questions, important questions
13 for our state.
14 And I have two children, now adult children, but I
15 know from my experience, and I think all parents
16 understand that it is not easy to raise children. And
17 sometimes communication with children leaves a lot to be
18 desired, no matter how hard a parent tries. But I do
19 believe parents have to earn parental rights everyday that
20 they are a parent, whether they have minor children or
21 adult children.
22 I also strongly believe in the Ten Commandment's
23 admonition to honor your parents, and I believe in
24 parental rights. And for that reason, my vote on this
25 issue has been of great concern to me.
54
1 I have listened and I have walked in today and I have
2 had a number of people ask me what I was going to do. And
3 I said I didn't know. And as I walked in here today I did
4 not know. The one thing that I have been incredibly
5 impressed by during my service on this committee is the
6 quality and genuineness of the debate.
7 In many organizations, that we all have been part of,
8 people basically prepare their cross examination and come
9 into a room knowing and know precisely how they are going
10 to vote. But here I do believe that one person's opinion,
11 one person's comments can actually change the course of
12 this debate because I believe we come in here without an
13 agenda, and trying to do what is best for the people of
14 this state as we understand it.
15 In light of that background, I do not agree,
16 Commissioner West, with your statement that there are two
17 kinds of people, those who vote for this believe the State
18 should be responsible for children, rather than those who
19 oppose it and those who vote for it believe that the
20 parents are responsible. I believe that the parents are
21 always responsible for their children.
22 And, as I said, I believe that the parental rights
23 that we have and that we enjoy we have to earn, the State
24 doesn't give that to us. And I don't believe anything we
25 do here today is going to give us the respect of our
55
1 children. What I do believe is we have to educate our
2 children and communicate with our children and respect our
3 children and come to a mutual decision that the State does
4 not interfere with, and that this matter should not be in
5 the Constitution of the State of Florida, it should be in
6 our homes and should remain in our homes.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Rundle had asked to
8 be recognized before you, Commissioner Langley.
9 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I have a question of
10 Commissioner Freidin.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Rundle.
12 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Commissioners, I want to
13 address a population with you that I am concerned about
14 and we haven't really discussed this morning, and that has
15 to do with a group of young girls that are really somewhat
16 disenfranchised from families, from communities, who don't
17 feel empowered, who are abused in their homes.
18 Now I am sure that I felt like all of you when you
19 listened to those parents, and I'm a parent and surrounded
20 by teenagers. I think we are all very blessed and I think
21 our children are very blessed. And I would like to think
22 that my children would come to me when they have to make
23 very serious decisions like this one that we are talking
24 about, and I do believe they would.
25 But my concern deals with the population that I see
56
1 as a state attorney. So, trying for a moment not to
2 relate to our own personal lives, putting aside what we
3 are concerned about with our own children. I know that's
4 very hard to do because we immediately think about our own
5 personal relationships. I'd like for you to just think
6 about the girls that we see that come in and out of our
7 office who live nightmares; who have stepfathers, fathers,
8 grandfathers, who rape and abuse them regularly.
9 Sometimes this results in a pregnancy.
10 These women, these girls, don't always go to the
11 police, they stay there for a long time. Not all, but
12 many. They don't feel they can go anywhere. They are
13 afraid to go to their mothers for a whole variety of
14 reasons. Sometimes they come into the system and we see
15 them because a friend, an aunt, a teacher, someone has
16 spotted it, reported it, and it does trigger a system, but
17 it usually is not the girls coming in on their own.
18 So what I ask you to think about is do you really in
19 your heart of hearts think that these girls are going to
20 go into the downtown courthouse on Flagler Street where
21 there are thousands of people -- most people who are
22 empowered can't get to the courthouse, don't feel they
23 have access -- they are going to file something with the
24 clerk's office and then go ask a judge for some kind of
25 bypass? They are not going to do it. Not the girls that
57
1 I see coming and going. These girls need a support
2 system, and this, my concern is, that you are going to
3 drive these girls into illegal activities.
4 They are either going to lie about their ages --
5 those that have money are going to leave, they are going
6 to go somewhere else where they don't need parental
7 consent, where they don't need to go to mom, whose
8 boyfriend or new husband -- and tell her what's happened
9 to her and face the embarrassment, or maybe be kicked out
10 of her house or may be beaten up by this guy.
11 She is going to go find some other way to do it. If
12 they have money, they will leave the state like they did
13 in the '70s. What about the girls that don't have any
14 money? Where are they going to go? They are going to go
15 to the street, they are going to find somebody who is
16 illegally going to perform this procedure. They have no
17 other option. And that's the population I just want you
18 to think about for a moment as you vote on this.
19 Try to put aside your own daughters and I know a lot
20 of you have daughters, but just think about this other
21 population of young girls that maybe none of you ever see
22 and how this will impact their lives and their children's
23 lives.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley.
25 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: If Commissioner Freidin would
58
1 rise to answer a question.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Freidin.
3 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: On your statistics from the
4 State of Massachusetts I think you said there were 12,000
5 appeals or requests for judicial intervention and only 12
6 of those were turned down, and 10 of those 12 were
7 overturned; is that not correct?
8 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: That's not correct. It is
9 kind of correct. It was Massachusetts and Minnesota, it
10 was in the course of a very long period of time, I think
11 it was over a decade. And of the 12,000, 21 were denied
12 and 10 were overturned, 10 of the denials were overturned
13 on appeal.
14 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: So there were only 11 out of
15 12,000 where the child actually was not allowed to get the
16 abortion with this procedure in place?
17 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Correct.
18 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: So all these horribles that
19 were paraded by Commissioner Rundle and yourself were only
20 to that 11,000, and you have no statistics on how many
21 families got together and how many abortions were dealt
22 with within the family that never reached those
23 statistics?
24 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: That is not correct. First of
25 all, the cases that Commissioner Rundle was talking about
59
1 are cases of young girls who are, as she said,
2 disenfranchised, who do not feel empowered, who do not
3 understand the system, who do not know how to work their
4 way through the system and would not feel comfortable
5 going to the courthouse. Who would not feel -- they can't
6 trust anybody in their lives because they have been
7 brought up in abusive, untrustworthy homes. They are
8 often abandoned, and if they are not abandoned they are
9 treated poorly. They aren't going to go trust some judge.
10 So that's not the group we are talking about here.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mathis, you have
12 been recognized once. Do you rise for a question? Who is
13 it addressed to?
14 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Would Commissioner Rundle yield
15 for a question?
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Rundle.
17 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Does allowing these young girls
18 to get an abortion without parents' knowledge address the
19 issue of their abuse?
20 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I think that what happens, what
21 you have to look at is the continuing victimization of
22 this person. It obviously doesn't obviate what's happened
23 to her in terms of the abuse, but for many of these girls
24 it would be further abuse, it would be aggravating and
25 continuing and invigorating their victimization by
60
1 requiring them to go back to the source of this abuse.
2 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: The judicial bypass for those
3 young girls who feel like, that she couldn't get parental
4 consent or are abused, or are in these just horrendous
5 situations, having them go before a judge and speak to a
6 judge on that, wouldn't that get them help, not only for
7 one medical procedure, but for the underlying cause, the
8 underlying horrendous issues that they are dealing with?
9 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: No doubt, and that's what you
10 and I would hope and all of us would hope that. We would
11 hope that these girls would have available to them a whole
12 host of support services, physical, emotional, financial,
13 all of those services. But the question is, how does she
14 get to that point? And how do we encourage her to do
15 that? We would encourage her to do that, but the reality
16 is many will not.
17 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: The other issue about the
18 disenfranchised. Disenfranchised young ladies who are
19 poor and cannot afford abortion are still forced to deal
20 with the pregnancy full term, correct? There are no state
21 funds that allow for those of lower economic means to get
22 abortions?
23 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I'm not as familiar with that
24 and what the availability is and what the costs are, but
25 my sense of that would be that there are a number of
61
1 clinics that would access these women and where they would
2 feel comfortable going to on a private basis.
3 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: My point here is that this
4 pregnancy is not the full-blown issue with these young
5 ladies that you spoke of. There are more -- there are
6 other issues that if their family is not dealing with,
7 then a judicial bypass would allow the government to
8 intervene even further. But if the family is positioned
9 to deal with this, with the information of having to get a
10 consent, in fact that might encourage a healing and would
11 provide support that a medical procedure does not take
12 into issue.
13 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: The problem with that thinking
14 is that there is a big if in there. And you know, I will
15 share with you that in our office we have one unit that's
16 called, we call it the sexual battery unit, which is the
17 legal phrase for rape cases. And that unit does nothing
18 but rapes against young people. Our adult, most of our
19 adult rape cases, are handled by other divisions. And I
20 would dare to say that about 80 percent of those rape
21 cases on young people are incest cases.
22 And we see these girls all the time. Most of them
23 are girls. And they will tell you, I didn't know where to
24 go, I didn't want to go talk to anybody, and it is just by
25 happenstance, by the blessings, that we got these girls.
62
1 We don't even know the number of girls we don't get. I do
2 not believe they would go to a court on their own.
3 (Commissioner Thompson assumes the chair.)
4 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Okay. For what purpose,
5 Commissioner Mills?
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Will Commissioner Rundle yield
7 for a question?
8 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: She yields.
9 COMMISSIONER MILLS: The question is, in your
10 judgment you said you didn't believe the girls that you
11 encountered would go to court?
12 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I do not believe that they
13 will.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: And I guess that's what we said,
15 there are 12,000 cases of courts making this decision
16 rather than parents, at least -- but your, what is your
17 judgment as to, if they don't have a legal option; do you
18 really believe that that 90 percent of the people you are
19 talking about will seek the illegal option since they
20 can't afford it and they won't go to court?
21 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I really do because I can't see
22 any other way out for them. I mean, I really believe that
23 they will not go to a circuit court in their own downtown.
24 Many of these girls can barely survive day-to-day with
25 what they are already handling.
63
1 Secondly, where else can they go? They are going to
2 have to either go somewhere where it is legal and not
3 required, and if they don't have the money to do that,
4 what other options are there? I mean, in my mind I come
5 to this conclusion simply because I can't think of any
6 other options for them.
7 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Commissioner Evans, for what
8 purpose?
9 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Question for Commissioner
10 Rundle.
11 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Will you yield to a question
12 from Commissioner Evans? She yields.
13 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Commissioner Rundle, what
14 percentage of cases that you prosecute where you have
15 incest on a minor child and there is absolutely no
16 physical evidence of that incest, it's a matter of
17 believing somebody's word over somebody else's words, what
18 percentage of those cases do you win, do you get a
19 conviction?
20 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I don't know, Commissioner
21 Evans, I have never really looked at it that way. I know
22 that clearly there are a lot of cases where we do try to
23 work within the family if it is workable. Oftentimes it
24 is not.
25 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Would you believe that my
64
1 husband has sat on the criminal bench and that the
2 percentage of cases that have come before him when there
3 is no physical evidence, that the percentage of conviction
4 is zero percent?
5 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: You are right, I would find
6 zero hard to believe, but I would believe --
7 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Would you believe that what I am
8 saying is true in this case?
9 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Oh, I absolutely -- there is no
10 doubt in my mind that you believe that and that may be
11 occurring in your jurisdiction, but it is true --
12 COMMISSIONER EVANS: But the point is --
13 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Wait, you asked me a question,
14 if I may. It is true that the successful prosecution,
15 whatever that really means, is lower in cases of that
16 nature in almost all kinds of what we call one-on-one
17 cases; they are extremely difficult. And oftentimes what
18 you are really seeking is some kind of sexual offender
19 treatment program for the offending party, and if you can
20 resolve the case in that way, I consider that a success.
21 I don't know what your definition of success may be.
22 COMMISSIONER EVANS: We are talking about the
23 defendant goes to trial and he is found not guilty by a
24 jury verdict.
25 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: And your point is, I'm sorry?
65
1 COMMISSIONER EVANS: The point is, wouldn't your case
2 against child abusers be much more powerful if you had
3 physical evidence, and would not a live baby provide a
4 basis for physical evidence? We are talking about trying
5 to get rid of child abusers.
6 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: First of all, you are assuming
7 that we have them in the system.
8 COMMISSIONER EVANS: That we have child abusers in
9 the system?
10 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: No, we are assuming that we
11 have been able to intervene in an abusive situation and we
12 now have a case against the abuser. One of the toughest
13 decisions that prosecutors have to make is to put a child
14 through greater victimization through the process. And I
15 will share with you when we interview lawyers for the job,
16 we actually do a hypothetical, What if you knew you had a
17 person who is abusing a child but everybody tells you if
18 you use that child as a witness, you will further the
19 victimization.
20 COMMISSIONER EVANS: I'm not talking about --
21 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: But I am.
22 COMMISSIONER EVANS: -- talking about DNA testing.
23 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: But I think that -- your
24 thought process, to force her -- to produce a child for
25 evidence in a criminal trial is abusive of itself. It is
66
1 further victimization. And so everyday we confront that
2 issue about minimizing her victimization. And so I think
3 my answer to you would be I think that would be furthering
4 it.
5 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay. So we are talking about a
6 situation where the child, the minor child, has -- who is
7 pregnant or who has been pregnant and has delivered a live
8 baby, we are talking about a minor child who has chosen to
9 come forward, who has decided to go to a trial, we are
10 talking about a trial situation, we are not talking about
11 any kind of putting a baby on a witness stand, I'm just
12 talking about DNA testing that we do to determine
13 paternity. And you view paternity testing as being
14 traumatically abusive of the child?
15 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: When it exists we do use it.
16 In fact, we have cases pending now. One was recently in
17 the news, and of course we are going to utilize whatever
18 evidence is available to us, but again, our goal is to
19 continuously reduce the victimization of this victim.
20 Now you also say she has come forward. It isn't
21 always that way, you know, it isn't that she necessarily
22 came -- went to the police and triggered the process.
23 Oftentimes it happens incidental and she becomes almost a
24 forced witness, if you like, in a case.
25 COMMISSIONER EVANS: The basic question then is, in
67
1 trial, would you prefer to have DNA evidence or not?
2 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I can have DNA evidence
3 without --
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I am going to rule this
5 discussion is out of order. We are not talking about DNA
6 evidence. Are you rising to a question, Commissioner
7 Smith, to Commissioner Rundle who still has the floor?
8 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I'm rising to speak when you
9 recognize me.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are recognized, she is
11 through.
12 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I had not
13 intended to speak on this issue, I'm going to watch the
14 clock to make sure I stay under two minutes. The first
15 issue I want to bring to the attention of the body, which
16 you probably know, but it needs to be in the record, is
17 that one of the greatest problems that we have in the
18 African-American community are little black babies who are
19 waiting to be adopted. I served as president of the
20 National Bar Association and one of my number one
21 initiatives was to coordinate with the associations of
22 social workers to organize an adoption program, and I'm
23 proud to tell you that over a three-year period we were
24 able to secure about 40 -- I'm sorry, 14,000 new parents
25 for adoption.
68
1 So I don't know what's happening in other parts of
2 America and other parts of Florida, but I can tell you in
3 terms of just handing over a little black baby to be
4 adopted, that's not happening. There are not people
5 standing in the delivery room, fortunately like your
6 situations, saying, give me your little baby because I
7 want to give it a home. There is a tremendous backlog,
8 number one.
9 Number two, the number one fundamental principle of
10 natural law is that natural persons have control of their
11 natural bodies, and so natural law does not support this
12 proposal.
13 Thirdly, this is not a debate over good and evil and
14 neither side should take the position that this is so
15 clear cut that anybody who disagrees with my position has
16 got to be off the wall. This is one of the toughest
17 decisions that we have to make.
18 I represent the people that Kathy Rundle's office
19 sees, the least, the last, the left out, the looked over,
20 the down and out, people who are getting beat and raped
21 and just the most unspeakable kinds of things we can think
22 of. And if anybody really believes that these people even
23 know about, would even know about bypass or will subject
24 themselves to that kind of scrutiny, honestly, you are not
25 living in the real world.
69
1 The position that the proponents are trying to
2 advance is a position that we all should understand and
3 believe in. The problem is that, one, I don't want the
4 courts involved in this decision. And number two,
5 Commissioner Langley, I was so happy you asked the
6 question of Commissioner Freidin, and your question was
7 21,000 times, young kids went and asked for abortions and
8 only 12 of them they said no. I don't want 21,000 judges
9 making these decisions, I want what you want, I want the
10 families to do it. And the reason why I can't support
11 this is because I don't want to change the decision over
12 to some change like Judge Locket. That's why I vote no.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Do you rise for a question?
14 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, Mr. Chair.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Smith, do you yield?
16 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Of course.
17 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Smith, I ask you this
18 question as an adoptive parent myself and member of the
19 governor's partnership for abortion and one who does pro
20 bono adoptions and has encouraged adoption as a loving
21 alternative to abortion. You talk about the numerous
22 black children in this state who are waiting for adoption
23 and who at least have a chance for the future because of
24 the hope of life.
25 Do you intend to advocate that they would have been
70
1 better off to be extinguished in the mother's womb and
2 never given this chance?
3 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Absolutely not. First of all,
4 let me commend you as an adoptive parent. I have two
5 daughters. My point was, I just wanted to make sure the
6 record was clear that although we have wonderful
7 situations like Commissioner Evans expressed with a
8 loving, adoptive parent in the room taking the child as
9 soon as the child is born to provide that kind of loving
10 environment, and we have the Connors family out there
11 taking on these children, I want the record to reflect
12 that there are hundreds, not tens, hundreds of thousands
13 of little children who are not being adopted, yes, and we
14 should step forward.
15 All I am saying is, this proposal is not going to
16 help those little children get adopted. I am looking for
17 solutions, and I see a solution -- a situation where
18 parents, with parental consent we are going to have
19 parents in situations where they are preventing, even as
20 Commissioner Mills says, children from getting adopted
21 because if a child needs a medical procedure and the
22 parent doesn't want them to have a child because it is
23 embarrassing to the parents' status in life, the parents
24 say, I am not going to approve of that medical procedure
25 now, you have to have the abortion.
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1 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Brief follow-up question,
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