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1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
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COMMISSION MEETING
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DATE: January 28, 1998
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TIME: Commenced at 9:00 a.m.
11 Concluded at 3:00 p.m.
12 PLACE: The Senate Chamber
The Capitol
13 Tallahassee, Florida
14 REPORTED BY: KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
MONA L. WHIDDON
15 JULIE L. DOHERTY
Court Reporters
16 Division of Administrative Hearings
The DeSoto Building
17 1230 Apalachee Parkway
Tallahassee, Florida
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1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ (ABSENT)
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
PAT BARTON
6 ROBERT M. BROCHIN
THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH (EXCUSED)
7 KEN CONNOR
CHRIS CORR
8 SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW
VALERIE EVANS (EXCUSED UNTIL 9:45 a.m.)
9 MARILYN EVANS-JONES (ABSENT)
BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
10 ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
PAUL HAWKES (ABSENT)
11 WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS (EXCUSED UNTIL 1:15 p.m.)
12 THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN (EXCUSED)
DICK LANGLEY (ABSENT)
13 JOHN F. LOWNDES
STANLEY MARSHALL (EXCUSED UNTIL 1:15 p.m.)
14 JACINTA MATHIS
JON LESTER MILLS
15 FRANK MORSANI
ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
16 CARLOS PLANAS (EXCUSED)
JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
17 KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
SENATOR JIM SCOTT
18 H. T. SMITH
CHRIS T. SULLIVAN (ABSENT)
19 ALAN C. SUNDBERG
JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON
20 PAUL WEST (ABSENT)
JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON (ABSENT)
21 STEPHEN NEAL ZACK (EXCUSED UNTIL 1:15 p.m.)
22 IRA H. LEESFIELD (ABSENT)
LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN (ABSENT)
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1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Roll taken and recorded electronically.)
3 SECRETARY BLANTON: All commissioners indicate
4 your presence. All commissioners indicate your
5 presence. Quorum call. Quorum call.
6 (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)
7 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: If everybody would take their
9 seats and then promptly rise. And if you would, rise
10 for the morning prayer. This morning we have Reverend
11 Larry Killburn, who is the pastor of John Wesley
12 United Methodist Church in Tallahassee. Reverend
13 Killburn, welcome.
14 REVEREND: May we pray. Holy God, we thank you
15 for waking us up this morning to another day of life.
16 "This is indeed the day the Lord has made; we will
17 rejoice and be glad in it." Thank you Father, that we
18 live in a country where freedom is embraced, and,
19 Father, we pray for those who still live in places
20 where oppression and fear prevail. We pray this
21 morning for all of those in authority over us: for
22 our President and Vice-President, for our other
23 elected officials in Washington, D.C., Father, give
24 them wisdom and patience to govern rightly.
25 We also pray today for those in state government
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1 here in Florida -- our Governor and Cabinet, our state
2 legislators and, especially for those represented here
3 on the State Constitution Revision Commission. Watch
4 over their deliberations today, Father, guard them
5 against a spirit of protectionism and partisanism.
6 Allow their discussions to flow freely so that in the
7 end your will may be done in regard to this most
8 precious document, our state Constitution.
9 And we'll be careful, Father, to give you the
10 glory and honor, because, O God, you are so worthy and
11 so deserving of our praise. In your Heavenly Name, we
12 pray. Amen.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you, Reverend. This
14 morning, please remain standing for the Pledge of
15 Allegiance, which is led this morning by students from
16 Deer Lake Middle School who will serve as our pages
17 today. As I call your name, would you come up and
18 stand in front of the group, and they include Lindsey
19 Hartsfield, Mollie Snyder, Lindsey Johnson, Catlin
20 Curts, Holly Monroe, Branden Gokey, James Martinez,
21 Christian Baker, Eric Nash and Bryce Young. Their
22 chaperones are Carla Cramer and Shane Seifert. If you
23 young people would now turn and face the flag and lead
24 us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
25 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
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1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I think we all agree
2 that it's certainly a beautiful morning and the
3 weather is great. It kind of put a little
4 invigoration in some of us older people, but one of
5 the most invigorating days we had was pointed out to
6 me was yesterday.
7 I don't know whether you realized it, but we
8 dealt with subjects that have torn the country up for
9 a number of years and we did it with great class and
10 with debate and with respect for each other's
11 opinions, and I'm very proud to be a part of this
12 group. We dealt with all forms of the abortion issue,
13 we dealt with income tax, and we dealt with
14 affirmative action, and we dealt with all of those
15 things that really have been critically disruptive
16 throughout the country. And if others were watching
17 and could see how you handled it and how the debate
18 was handled, I think they could take it as a great
19 example of how to deal with these very difficult
20 subjects.
21 The one thing that I think that has occurred in
22 this group that doesn't occur in many is that you have
23 the right to state your position and state it on the
24 record and state what you really think should be done
25 in the Constitution on all issues, and you have done
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1 it in such a fine manner that you make, all of you,
2 you make me proud to be Chairman of this group, but
3 also I think those who appointed you would have to be
4 well pleased. The daily order of this morning -- do
5 we have any other announcements that we need to make?
6 Commissioner Scott.
7 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners,
8 there are four proposals that I want to waive out of
9 the Finance and Tax Committee. We discussed it with
10 the members last night, that we did not -- we have no
11 recommendation on them simply because we didn't get to
12 them. We handled some of the more controversial
13 issues, 121, 26, 99, and 41.
14 Two of these are by Commissioner Langley, one by
15 Commissioner Mathis, which should -- it relates to the
16 leasehold, but she wanted to keep that separate from
17 the committee substitute so that we may -- so, I would
18 move at this time to withdraw those from the Committee
19 on Finance and Tax. And we have acted on everything
20 else that was in there. Okay, 121 by Commissioner
21 Freiden, 26 and 99 by Langley, it relates to the water
22 management department, and 41 by Mathis, without
23 objection.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
25 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I recommend to the
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1 Commission that we have included these four items on
2 the calendar, they start on Page 4, and the bottom one
3 on the right-hand column on Page 4 is the first one
4 identified by Commissioner Scott and the top next
5 three on Page 5, so they are in your packet and they
6 are before us if we reach them today.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't see 41 on here.
8 Commissioner Scott.
9 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: It shouldn't be, because it
10 relates to the seaport part of this leasehold issue.
11 And it was kept separate. We made committee
12 substitutes out of all of the rest of them.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Forty-one won't come up
14 really until our next meeting is what you are saying,
15 and then because it is germane to the other issues
16 we'll be taking up. Okay, so you move that we add to
17 the calendar, 121, 26, 99 and 109?
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Correct.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. They are added
20 without objection. Commissioner Connor.
21 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, I request
22 unanimous consent of the body to simply carry the
23 motion for reconsideration by which 107 failed and
24 forward it in a pending mode until the next session.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Before we do
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1 that, I think Commissioner Barkdull, Chairman of
2 Rules, hasn't finished his announcements, but that's
3 fine.
4 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I am sorry.
5 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's fine, I have no
6 objection to that, because there are two commissioners
7 that are interested and there's one that's sick.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So, it's been proposed by
9 Commissioner Connor that we carry over the pending
10 motion to reconsider on 107 which has been pending
11 until our next meeting. Commissioner Morsani, you
12 rose. Do you want to speak to that?
13 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: Yes.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay, go ahead.
15 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: Maybe this isn't the
16 proper time. Mr. Conner, with all due respect, I
17 think we have debated some of these issues, we keep
18 debating them. I think we have got to draw a line in
19 the sand at some point. I think we drew a line in the
20 sand on that issue. It's not only the issue that
21 bothers me, but the time schedules bother me. I
22 reluctantly decline to accept that, if I'm saying the
23 right words.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, it has to be unanimous,
25 and therefore, we'll have to take it up today,
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1 Commissioner Connor. Am I right on that, Commissioner
2 Barkdull?
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir. Commissioner
4 Connor, would you like to defer or would you like to
5 take it up now?
6 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: It doesn't matter.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Let me conclude the
9 special order report which is on your desk. You have
10 an additional volume three, which is your green
11 volume. We'll be working out of all three books
12 today. I want to call your attention to the fact that
13 the Select Committee on Sovereign Immunity is to meet
14 at noon today.
15 I also want to call your attention to the fact
16 that we are next scheduled to meet on Monday,
17 February 9th. We'll come in at 1:00. Your calendar
18 that's been submitted to you indicates that we'll
19 conclude at 1:00 on Thursday. I think you better hold
20 that a little bit flexible, because depending on how
21 well our work goes, we may have to go until five that
22 day. I just wanted to alert you to that.
23 The last meeting is in February and most of our
24 work is going to have to be completed by the end of
25 February, is the week of the 23rd, in which we come in
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1 at 1:00 on Monday and it shows us concluding at
2 1:00 on Friday. Once again, on that Friday, you
3 better be flexible, we may not get out of here at
4 1:00 on Friday. I just call that to your attention
5 because I know reservations are going to be difficult
6 this time of year.
7 In that connection, you have received on your
8 desk and you will receive in your home offices when
9 you get back there, the information relative to these
10 sites and particular hotels for the public hearings in
11 Fort Lauderdale and St. Petersburg. I ask you to make
12 your reservations for those planning to attend
13 promptly, because there's a cutoff date of
14 February 12th and 13th of February.
15 The public hearing in Tallahassee has not been
16 formally scheduled yet and we will notify you as soon
17 as possible when that is because we recognize, also,
18 that it'll occur during the time of the Legislature
19 being in session, so hotel rooms and transportation
20 may be difficult up here.
21 We have a fairly ambitious calendar today and
22 hopefully we can conclude all of the items on there.
23 Some of them are going to be controversial, which is
24 understandable. The -- I would be interested in
25 whether Commissioner Mills who had a Style and
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1 Drafting Committee meeting this morning wants to make
2 any comments to the group in reference to that.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills, I guess
4 you can comment on that.
5 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 The style and drafting committee did meet this morning
7 at 8:00, full attendance, all attended, and that
8 committee will meet again next Wednesday here. We
9 all -- we appreciate any questions or input you may
10 have. We have, I think at this point, passed about 35
11 propositions. I think it is worth saying one thing,
12 Mr. Chairman, that it seems that thematically, this
13 commission has been consistent. It has dealt with a
14 series of important issues that we heard about, in
15 terms of education, environment, access to government.
16 And I think although it's hard to see the forest
17 when you are in the trees here, I think that
18 ultimately you are going to see that this commission
19 has done a very sound job of responding to what people
20 were saying.
21 But since this commission possesses so much
22 intelligence and interest in these issues, we
23 appreciate, if anybody wants to attend the meeting
24 next Wednesday, I will certainly notice that. And if
25 any members want to come and give their opinions, we
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1 appreciate it. But it's next Wednesday from 10:00
2 until 5:00 p.m. in the commission conference room.
3 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
5 Barkdull.
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That concludes the action
7 of the Rules Committee. I suggest we revert to the
8 special order calendar, the item on reconsideration by
9 Commissioner Connor.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Commissioner Freiden,
11 did you have something on this subject?
12 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: I just wanted to -- if
13 it's an appropriate time, to withdrawal Proposal 121,
14 the one that Commissioner Scott referred to, one of
15 the ones that he waived out of the committee.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Without
17 objection, Proposal No. 121 is withdrawn from your
18 consideration. We'll now proceed with the special
19 order, Proposal 107, by Commissioner Connor. It was
20 disapproved by the Committee on Declaration of Rights,
21 it failed on its appearance before the commission, the
22 pending motion to reconsider by Commissioner Argiz,
23 and then it was abandoned.
24 But then on unanimous consent, we allowed
25 Commissioner Connor to move to reconsider, and it's on
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1 that motion that we are presently scheduled to hear.
2 And I would like to ask, with your permission, the
3 clerk to read.
4 READING CLERK: Proposal 107, a proposal to
5 revise Article I, Florida Constitution, providing that
6 the state Constitution does not restrict the right of
7 parents to consent to medical treatment for their
8 minor children.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now, do you recall the vote
10 by which that --
11 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I believe it was 12 to 18.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Eighteen to 12, 12 yeas, 18
13 nays?
14 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Proceed with your
16 presentation.
17 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, it's not my
18 intent to re-debate the merits of the issue. The
19 rationale simply behind this motion is as follows,
20 there were several folks who were unable to be present
21 in the body at this time this matter came up and who
22 wanted to vote and could not vote on the motion.
23 We don't have enough votes, frankly, to pass that
24 motion. It's not my intent to re-debate it, but
25 Commissioner Argiz, who voted on the prevailing side,
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1 made the motion because Commissioner Planas, who felt
2 very strongly about the issue, had been unable to be
3 in attendance.
4 Commissioner Planas because of medical problems
5 has been unable to be in attendance at this meeting as
6 well. And I simply wanted to request that we be
7 permitted to carry the matter forward to the next
8 session so that those folks would have the opportunity
9 to vote on it if they were able to be in attendance at
10 that time. That is the sole basis for the motion.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Alfonso.
12 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Comment. I also, because
13 of my situation at home, had to leave that afternoon
14 of that session last time and I also felt strongly
15 about the issue, so I would be another vote for it.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: In other words, you didn't
17 have parental consent to be here that day; is that
18 right?
19 COMMISSIONER ARGIZ: That's correct, Mr.
20 Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans.
22 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I didn't have
23 parental consent, but I had the Chairman's consent not
24 to be here that day.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are right.
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1 COMMISSIONER EVANS: And this is an issue of
2 particular importance to me. It's one that, if
3 you-all will remember in our legislative careers, the
4 Legislature dealt with and, in fact, was challenged,
5 was found unconstitutional.
6 So, this is the only way we can ever address this
7 particular issue because the Legislature has addressed
8 it. I can't remember the year, can you, Senator
9 Scott? '88, that it did pass, and it passed the
10 Legislature and it was not vetoed by the Governor, but
11 it was challenged in court and was found
12 unconstitutional.
13 So, this is the only remedy, we are the only spot
14 in which we can deal with this particular issue. If
15 you can find it in your heart to allow one more debate
16 on this, I would ask that, in fact, you allow
17 Commissioner Connor to move for reconsideration to be
18 extended until our next meeting. And I would ask
19 Commissioner Connor, as we try to do in the
20 Legislature, to at least get everybody who is
21 interested in this subject in one spot at one time.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are on the motion to
23 reconsider already. It has been -- while you were not
24 here, it did not achieve being carried over so -- at
25 this point, on the motion to reconsider. And I will
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1 ask that you open the machine and vote on whether or
2 not we'll reconsider. If you vote to reconsider, we
3 will have full debate again on this matter. Announce
4 it.
5 READING CLERK: Twelve yeas and 14 nays,
6 Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We vote not to reconsider,
8 Commissioner Connor. We'll move to -- on the special
9 order calendar to Proposal No. 135 by Commissioner
10 Henderson. Would you read it, please?
11 READING CLERK: Proposal 135, a proposal to
12 revise Article VII, Section 4 of the Florida
13 Constitution; adding lands used for conservation
14 purposes to those lands that may, by law, be assessed
15 for tax purposes on the basis of their character or
16 use.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
18 Henderson, you are recognized.
19 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, there
20 should be an amendment at the desk. I don't know that
21 it has been distributed.
22 READING CLERK: On the desk, Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There is an amendment on the
24 desk by Commissioner Henderson to his proposal. Would
25 you read the amendment, please?
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1 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Henderson, delete
2 everything after the proposing clause and insert
3 lengthy amendment.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. As I understand
5 the amendment -- maybe you better just explain it.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 This -- and Mr. Mills is rising to assist me with the
8 amendment. There were two matters that were
9 considered by Finance and Tax, both received favorable
10 recognition or favorable report. Yesterday afternoon,
11 the Finance and Tax Committee approved this language
12 after a very good debate and a very good staff
13 analysis on this issue. And what we have here is what
14 we think is a very good two-step process to
15 accommodate this issue.
16 It'll require general law on the subject and also
17 it'll require a local vote or vote at the local level.
18 What this does is provide an ability to give
19 incentives to landowners who are good stewards of the
20 land, who are using their property for conservation
21 purposes. This is a way to reward them for their
22 practices.
23 It is -- we have worked long and hard with
24 representatives of the land-owning community and
25 private landowners throughout the state and it's come
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1 to this point, and so this is a good way to effect
2 additional conservation rewards from the other areas
3 that we have discussed. And I think Mr. Mills would
4 like to contribute to this as well.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, Mr. Chairman, what
7 this amendment is, was my Proposal 109, which was
8 referred to the Committee on Finance and Fax and it
9 passed yesterday unanimously. And what it does is
10 accord local governments the discretion to implement a
11 conservation easement as an exemption. Commissioner
12 Henderson's original proposal dealt with assessments.
13 Constitutional authority is required to allow an
14 exemption. Now, the exact design of that exemption
15 and the definition of conservation, which,
16 Mr. Chairman, you were concerned about your lake, will
17 be defined by general law.
18 During yesterday's debate, Finance and Tax have
19 used the definition in the current law for land
20 acquisition, but it was the thought of the committee
21 that more constitutional language, to accord it to the
22 Legislature to define that. This is a rational way to
23 encourage conservation and preserve private property
24 rights. And it leaves it in the discretion of the
25 counties and the cities to do that.
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1 How this practically would work is, since you now
2 have constitutional authority to have an exemption,
3 the Legislature can implement that exemption,
4 otherwise they couldn't because there's limited
5 authority to grant exemptions. So the Legislature may
6 now define a conservation easement, in terms of what
7 kind of activity would be conservation.
8 Yesterday, and again, very good staff work by
9 Commissioner Scott's staff, they used the land
10 acquisition language for conservation to define it.
11 It was the committee's view that that was too much
12 language to put in the Constitution, and just by
13 saying general law here, the Legislature will do that.
14 And once this has been approved by the
15 Legislature, then any county or city may opt in to the
16 process designed by the Legislature. What this does
17 is it allow counties and cities to make their own
18 tax-based decisions. And there's some counties and
19 cities that may want to do it, some that may not.
20 And practically what would happen is either
21 conservation organizations or landowners, seeing this
22 as an option, will go to their county and say, I would
23 like to place my land in conservation under this
24 definition and I will not use it for a period of years
25 as provided by the statute, and for that I wish to
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1 apply for this property tax exemption, so therefore
2 there is an incentive for the person to do it. And if
3 the county does not want to do it, they don't have to.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Incidentally, I don't want to
5 break this debate, but I think my ruling on the motion
6 to reconsider was incorrect. It takes a waiver of the
7 rules to do what Commissioner Connor wanted to do and
8 that only -- that requires a two-thirds' vote, it
9 doesn't require a unanimous vote. And therefore, if
10 somebody would raise the point of order that I've
11 raised on myself here, we'll revert to that and vote
12 on whether or not the motion that was made by
13 Commissioner Connor, which was to defer the
14 reconsideration until the next meeting, we should
15 waive the rules and allow that to carry it forward.
16 And I think maybe some of the people that felt that,
17 they didn't get an opportunity to discuss this again,
18 which they wanted.
19 And in looking at it, I think I made a mistake,
20 and the 18 to 12 vote would indicate that we don't
21 have the necessary votes to defeat the waiver of the
22 rule and I made an incorrect ruling by requiring
23 unanimous vote.
24 With your permission, without objection, I would
25 ask that we revisit that now before we get too far
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1 away from it and vote on whether or not we waive the
2 rules to carry over the motion to reconsider Proposal
3 107 by Commissioner Connor until the January -- until
4 the next meeting of the commission. Commissioner
5 Scott was up.
6 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well, I was going to, at
7 your request, Mr. Chairman, I will make the point of
8 order. And the motion, then, would be to postpone the
9 reconsideration.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Correct, which was
11 Commissioner Connor's motion.
12 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Which would require a
13 two-thirds vote to waive the rules. And I just want
14 to say one thing. I mean, Commissioner Jennings has
15 asked that this be deferred because it was taken up on
16 a day that she was not here. I don't like
17 particularly debating these issues for the second and
18 third time. They are very heartrendering, emotional
19 issues, but we have already done it five or six times.
20 And what's wrong with doing it once more as a courtesy
21 to commissioners that have asked for this
22 consideration?
23 So, I would speak in favor of reconsidering --
24 regardless of how you vote on the merits of it, you
25 know, I think it could well be one of you who could be
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1 in this position at some point on the main issue or
2 the most important issue that you have up here. So I
3 would ask that we defer it, it's not a vote on the
4 merits, and give them a chance to reconsider it.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay.
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think Commissioner Zack was
8 up.
9 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, first off,
10 this motion, first takes a two-thirds vote of the full
11 motion, secondly, it's without debate, and thirdly,
12 I'm going to vote for it.
13 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Mr. Chairman, each of us have
14 issues that are very, very important to us and I
15 venture to say, other than the Chairman, there won't
16 be anybody who will be in attendance every day on
17 every vote in this chamber. My concern, and I'm very
18 sensitive to this issue and to the strong feelings
19 that people have regarding this issue, there are like
20 issues that each of us have.
21 However, my point of information is, this matter
22 was extremely well debated and I don't believe that
23 anything more could be added to either side of this
24 debate. Is there a way that those people who wish to
25 state their support of one position or the other who
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1 were not in attendance can do that in some other way,
2 such as being put on the record, having their position
3 put on the record as being, had they been here, would
4 have adopted the positions that have been stated by
5 either side? My concern again is a time concern.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let me say it again, that's
7 not before --
8 COMMISSIONER ZACK: For point of information, can
9 that be done?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: My answer to that is, I'm
11 going to rule it, it hasn't been done, and to my
12 knowledge we haven't provided a vehicle for it. What
13 we are on is, correctly on, is the motion of -- which
14 we were not correctly on, Commissioner Connor's motion
15 to put off the vote on reconsideration on this
16 Proposal No. 107 until the next meeting. And I think,
17 in response to your inquiry, my understanding, that I
18 have been told by Commissioner Connor, and he stated
19 this, maybe not as directly as I'm going to, but he
20 stated it on the floor that there were members who
21 were here today who were not here in the debate that
22 wanted to speak, cannot speak something on the record.
23 And when I realized what I had done, I reversed
24 that and we are now on Commissioner Connor's motion to
25 delay the reconsideration of this matter until the
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1 next meeting. And the Chair, if you will give me your
2 attention, I feel, and this is a matter of personal
3 feeling on this, that we should honor the motion of
4 Commissioner Connor for the reasons he's stated.
5 And even though I tend to agree with those who
6 say that we have debated this and re-debated it and so
7 on, that is not the feeling of a substantial number of
8 members, and I think we should afford that courtesy to
9 Commissioner Connor.
10 That's my own view, and that's one of the reasons
11 I went back and asked about the rules and found out
12 that I had improperly interpreted the rules. So, if
13 you want to speak to the motion which is on the floor,
14 which is to -- to go forward -- commissioner Thompson.
15 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, I don't
16 care how we come out here. I voted with him last
17 time, I am going to vote with him this time, but the
18 rules are the rules and a motion to waive the rules is
19 non-debatable in every parliamentary forum I've ever
20 been in and under 9.2 it's that way here.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are absolutely right, the
22 point of order is well taken. We will proceed to
23 vote. All in favor of Commissioner Connor's motion,
24 say aye. Opposed?
25 It passes by two-thirds vote and it is delayed
25
1 until the next meeting of the commission.
2 (Verbal vote taken.)
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's go ahead now that I
4 have completely interrupted Commissioner Henderson and
5 Commissioner Mills with my inept performance in the
6 Chair, we'll go forward. Commissioner Mills, you have
7 the floor.
8 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, I think that
9 we have explained it and if there were any questions.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, there were some people
11 not in the chamber, and I'm sure Commissioner
12 Henderson can explain again what he's doing, or you
13 can.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Okay. This is a proposal
15 for a conservation easement. It was passed
16 unanimously out of Finance and Tax yesterday. What it
17 does is accords to local governments the authority to
18 grant an easement for conservation purposes.
19 Conservation purposes will be defined by general law.
20 Yesterday we had a staff that did tremendous work
21 on this, had defined conservation in the Constitution
22 as the language of the conservation recreation lands
23 program, which includes all of the purposes for which
24 you can -- the public can buy land.
25 So, it made sense that if you are going to grant
26
1 an exemption it should be for the same purposes that
2 the public would otherwise spend money. So, what this
3 does is say it will be defined by general law. Also,
4 the process will be defined by general law. But the
5 decision and negotiation is on the county level.
6 And the reason for that is each individual
7 county, there may be some counties that may not want
8 to do it, there may be some counties that do. And
9 once the general law has passed, the county has that
10 option. And the other result is the land owner has
11 the incentive to put their land in conservation and
12 use it for conservation purposes and they get a real
13 tax break. The need for it is the Legislature cannot
14 give an exemption unless the Constitution so
15 authorizes.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott. All
17 right. Would those in the back of the room please --
18 that are caucusing there, un-caucus a little bit for
19 us, will you? Thank you very much.
20 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Just briefly in favor of
21 this. There is a definition in the statutes in what's
22 called the Carl (phonetic) program for purchase of
23 environmental lands for conservation. The first draft
24 of this had that laid out in the Constitution, but
25 upon reflection, after the committee deliberated, we
27
1 felt that it would be better to just leave it to
2 general law because we might want to change it or it
3 might not be what we want.
4 So, I think this version will accomplish the
5 purpose and I think it is a very worthwhile purpose.
6 We are going to hopefully see more and more of people
7 doing this in the Legislature and the county or
8 municipality would have to approve it under whatever
9 terms and conditions they want to put it on.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott is
11 chairman of Finance and Tax. This then puts it in the
12 Legislature, the power, so what can be exempted --
13 define what can be exempted, is that correct?
14 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: For what purpose, yes, it
15 does.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And then the counties, under
17 the framework of the general law, can do it; is that
18 correct?
19 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Right.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The reason I ask that, this
21 is not something that would create a loss of revenue,
22 necessarily, to the counties; it would have to be for
23 a specific purpose and go through the legislative
24 definition and then through some action by the local
25 body before it was done?
28
1 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: That's correct. They would
2 then have to do it if they wanted to under whatever
3 term. We talked about some years, ten years, or
4 whatever, but I think that should be -- and what would
5 happen if somebody started doing it and then quit, but
6 we will deal with that, the Legislature can deal with
7 that, and the county or municipality in their
8 ordinance can deal with it.
9 COMMISSIONER MILLS: And, Mr. Chairman, that's
10 why the option is local, because they would make that
11 decision as to revenue loss.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So, basically,
13 from our standpoint, the Constitution is
14 revenue-neutral on this?
15 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Correct.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It has to be action before
17 anything is done. All right. Any more proponents?
18 Any opponents? To close, Commissioner Henderson.
19 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, first of
20 all, not necessarily -- I will close, but the staff
21 prepared this amendment and I think the record should
22 accurately reflect that this is Mr. Mills' amendment.
23 Mr. Mills has been telling me all along he had a
24 better idea on this mater than I did, and the
25 committee has proved him right on this.
29
1 We have spent a lot of time working with private
2 property owners in the state in trying to come up with
3 a way to create incentives for private conservation.
4 This does it. And I think it'll go a long way with us
5 rewarding good stewardship.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You know, you are closing on
7 the amendment.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Yes, sir, this is it. I
9 am going to sit down and it'll be over. I got what I
10 came for, Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. You are closing on
12 everything, then. All right. All of those in favor
13 of the amendment, say aye. Opposed?
14 (Verbal vote taken.)
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment is adopted and
16 now we will vote on the proposal. I'll ask
17 Commissioner Henderson to just read us that last
18 little line that you are adding to the Constitution,
19 and then we'll vote.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Thank you. We the
21 people of the United States -- sorry, wrong page.
22 (Laughter.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That was last night.
24 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Wrong page. Any county
25 or municipality may, for the purposes of its
30
1 respective tax levy and as authorized by general law,
2 grant ad valorem tax exemptions to owners of property
3 used for conservation purposes as defined by general
4 law.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Open the machine
6 and we'll vote.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everybody voted? Lock
8 the machine and announce the vote.
9 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
10 READING CLERK: Twenty-three yeas and zero nays,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We'll proceed to
13 the next proposal, which is committee substitute for
14 Proposal 184 by the Committee on Ethics and Elections,
15 and Commissioner Mills recommended as a committee
16 substitute by the Committee on Ethics and Elections
17 and it was deferred until this week with pending
18 amendment number one by Commissioner Mills and
19 Freiden. Is the amendment on the table?
20 READING CLERK: It's on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: First of all, read the
22 proposal.
23 READING CLERK: Committee substitute for proposal
24 No. 184, a proposal to revise Article VI, s.1, Florida
25 Constitution, providing that the Legislature shall
31
1 prohibit certain conduct in connection with elections.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills moves the
3 amendment.
4 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have got another one?
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Commissioners Freiden and
7 Rundle have a substitute. And if you want to argue
8 with them, go right ahead.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I wouldn't dare. So, what we
10 are fixing to deal with is the latest one, which is
11 really your amendment, you withdrew the other one and
12 this is your amendment; is that correct? It's moved
13 by you?
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Commissioner Freiden.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Frieden. All
16 right. Would you read the amendment, which is this
17 one? All right. He gave me the wrong one. She is
18 going to read it.
19 READING CLERK: By Commissioners Freiden and
20 Rundle, delete everything after the proposing clause
21 and insert lengthy amendment.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Who wants -- what
23 you have done is just rewritten it, right; is that
24 correct? And that's the amendment. So, if we adopt
25 the amendment, then we'll move to vote on the
32
1 proposal. And you are now recognized to explain the
2 amendment. And Commissioner Freiden, who moved it,
3 yields to you.
4 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, let me explain
5 how we got here briefly so people will at least
6 understand what this proposal deals with. The issue
7 that we were concerned with was fraud and deceit
8 during elections and the fact that it was difficult or
9 impossible to remove people for their conduct during
10 elections. It is available to remove people for their
11 conduct in office.
12 There are, of course, First Amendment issues that
13 we had to deal with. And I think we were at a point
14 where we thought it would be difficult, if not
15 impossible, to do it, but with terrific staff work and
16 with Commissioner Freiden's and Rundle's advice, they
17 have simplified this to the point where it may
18 actually accomplish that purpose with just a phrase.
19 Commissioner Freiden I think might want to explain how
20 she reached this conclusion.
21 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: Commissioners, really I --
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Rundle.
23 COMMISIONER RUNDLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 You may remember that the previous amendment, we
25 really tried to outline all of the types of behavior
33
1 that occurs during an election and we tried to
2 prohibit those activities. And instead what we found
3 was this language was much clearer.
4 And essentially what it does is what Commissioner
5 Mills said, it now allows for suspension removal for
6 the bad acts that are done during an election. And so
7 the amendment really basically says, Not only as a
8 public officer, but also as a candidate. So, we would
9 urge that you adopt this amendment.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right.
11 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I do believe that copies do
12 need to be distributed.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think they have been
14 distributed, I think.
15 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: Mr. Chairman, I believe
16 they are being distributed or about to be distributed.
17 Has the language been read?
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes. What she said is delete
19 everything after the proposing clause and insert
20 Section 1.
21 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: Why don't I read to the
22 commissioners while it's being handed out because it
23 really is a very simple -- we went from a very
24 complicated amendment to a very simple amendment, a
25 very simple proposal.
34
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Before we go forward, I have
2 got two or three amendments that's been handed to me
3 and I think the commissioners do too. This doesn't
4 have that language in it about evidencing -- you took
5 that out?
6 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: No, that's why I want to
7 read this to you. This is what it says. I'm going to
8 read you the existing language and I am going to tell
9 you when we get to the language what we want to add
10 in.
11 It says, this is under Article IV, s.7
12 Suspensions, filling office during suspensions,
13 Subsection A, by executive order stating the grounds
14 and filed with the Secretary of State the Governor may
15 suspend from office any state officer not subject to
16 impeachment, any officer of the militia not in the act
17 of service of the United States, or any county officer
18 for misfeasance -- I'm sorry, for a malfeasance or
19 misfeasance while in office or as a candidate for
20 office.
21 Now, what we have done, the added language is
22 "while in office or as a candidate for an office, at
23 the present time the Governor can suspend an officer
24 if that person engages in malfeasance or misfeasance
25 in office." All we are doing is adding in language
35
1 here that includes the possibility for the Governor to
2 suspend one of these people in these -- a state
3 officer or others in these categories from office if
4 they have engaged in malfeasance or misfeasance during
5 the course of their campaign; in other words, if they
6 got to that point as a result of some kind of
7 malfeasance or misfeasance.
8 Now, you ask -- I knew you were going to ask
9 this. What is malfeasance or misfeasance? And I've
10 been handed by our general counsel a -- what is this,
11 Debbie? This is the manual of practice and procedure
12 on executive suspensions, and in here there is a
13 definition of malfeasance and a definition of
14 misfeasance, and apparently these are terms of art
15 that have been used in connection with executive
16 suspensions forever, through Florida history.
17 Malfeasance has reference to evil conduct or an
18 illegal deed, the doing of that of which one ought not
19 to do, the performance of an act by an officer in his
20 official capacity that is wholly illegal and wrongful,
21 which he has no right to perform or which he has
22 contracted not to do.
23 Misfeasance is sometimes loosely applied in the
24 sense of malfeasance, appropriately used, misfeasance
25 has reference to the performance by an officer in his
36
1 official capacity of a legal act in an improper or
2 illegal manner, while malfeasance is the doing of an
3 official act in an unlawful manner. Misfeasance is
4 literally a misdeed or a trespass while nonfeasance
5 has reference to the neglect or refusal.
6 We are not talking about nonfeasance here, so
7 essentially, we had originally proposed this with a
8 list of categories of things that included things like
9 fraud and deceit, a judgment of liable or slander,
10 commission of a felony, commission of a hate crime.
11 And I think all of you who read that amendment
12 looked at this and got a little uncomfortable with the
13 length of it, and I think this essentially does the
14 same thing but leaves the determination of what is
15 misfeasance and what is malfeasance up to traditional
16 interpretations of those words.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Corr. And
18 you're next, Commissioner Nabors.
19 COMMISSIONER CORR: A question, please.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Do you yield for a question?
21 And she does.
22 COMMISSIONER CORR: Thank you. It appears to me
23 that in the amendment, that this would allow a
24 candidate for office that is not currently an
25 incumbent to do whatever they want, but the
37
1 incumbent -- tell me how it is different because the
2 original proposal went to a candidate for office, and
3 this doesn't include a candidate for office unless
4 they are already an officer.
5 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: No, this is -- this would
6 include a candidate who wins, they could then be
7 suspended or removed from office. It doesn't have to
8 be an incumbent.
9 COMMISSIONER CORR: What if he loses?
10 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Well, it's not okay to
11 have done that conduct. If what you did during the
12 course of the campaign arises to the level of a crime
13 or a civil -- a violation of a tort or any other
14 violation, then of course, the loser would be subject
15 to appropriate sanctions.
16 COMMISSIONER CORR: Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
18 Nabors.
19 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Ms. Freidin, let me ask you
20 a question and make sure I understand this.
21 Commissioners Mills and Sundberg, get your attention
22 too, as I read this, and I think I read it correctly,
23 that it gives the Governor the right to suspend a
24 Senator or a House member who is elected for
25 activities that occurred while they were a candidate
38
1 because they are not impeachable. So it would apply
2 to a House member or Senator --
3 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: No.
4 COMMISSIONER NABORS: It would not?
5 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Now, because if you look
6 at the way it exists presently the Governor may
7 suspend from office any state officer not subject to
8 impeachment.
9 COMMISSIONER NABORS: But only while in office.
10 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I am told that Article III
11 provides that the Legislature is the sole judge of the
12 seating of its members.
13 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Well, that's my question,
14 that's what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned
15 whether this creates a conflict between that because
16 this is the first time that we have a provision -- I
17 mean, House members and Senate members are not subject
18 to impeachment. Okay. Now that's one principle. The
19 other principle is we have a provision that says that
20 the House members are the sole judges of the
21 qualification. This gives the right of the Governor
22 then to suspend for an activity that occurred prior to
23 elections.
24 I'm concerned there is an inconsistency we have
25 built in as to who is the judge of the qualifications
39
1 for an alleged campaign violation because we are now
2 giving the Governor the right to suspend prior to --
3 while something happened during the campaign.
4 In other words, well, I think there is an
5 ambiguity there. I think we have a provision that
6 says the House is the sole judge of its members.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull, it is
8 my understanding this doesn't affect any other
9 provision of the Constitution such as that one he is
10 talking about, the House and the Senate still judge
11 the qualifications of their members. And
12 traditionally they have the authority to expel from
13 their membership anybody for any reason that they
14 collectively decide.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And, therefore, this wouldn't
17 apply and is not necessary because the Legislature can
18 now remove or expel or censor for whatever they did,
19 because I've been involved in a couple of those where
20 they did. I want to make that clear. The Governor,
21 on the other hand, only suspends now. And then the
22 suspension is submitted to the Senate, and this would
23 still be the case, and if the Senate doesn't act or
24 they confirm it, the person is then removed.
25 And if the Senate refuses to go along with the
40
1 Governor, then it is a non-event, he retains his
2 office. All this does, as I understand it from
3 Commissioner Freidin, Commissioner Sundberg, I think
4 you will agree, all this does is add to the Governor's
5 power of suspension acts that occurred in the -- while
6 he was a candidate, and he would have to be elected
7 before the Governor could suspend him. Isn't that
8 right, Commissioner Freidin?
9 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: That's my understanding
10 and intent.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Freidin.
12 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I said that's my
13 understanding and that's the intent.
14 COMMISSIONER NABORS: I want to make sure because
15 of the amendments we are not affecting the current
16 process in terms of the abilities of the House and
17 Senate to judge the qualifications of its own members.
18 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Mr. Chairman, I believe
19 that that extends to whether or not a candidate who is
20 elected is seated in the body, it doesn't just have to
21 do with expulsion. I think if they -- my recollection
22 is that each of those bodies has the authority to say,
23 You say you have been elected but we refuse to seat
24 you here.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And they could do that.
41
1 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Right. So that will
2 never, under the current state of the law, and in the
3 Constitution, the Governor will never be able to or
4 should not be able to remove someone for -- you know,
5 any House or Senate member for activities even
6 preceding their activities in the chamber.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And this wouldn't do that, as
8 I understand it. And not only wouldn't, it can't
9 under the separation of powers doctrine.
10 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Right, correct. But I
11 wasn't sure that you were including in there they have
12 the abilities to seat or not seat.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You're absolutely right, they
14 don't have to expel, they can just say, We are not
15 going to take you in the first place and you never get
16 seated. And probably this type thing, you are right,
17 would probably come up in that manner unless it was
18 discovered after he was seated. Commissioner
19 Barkdull.
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I want to be heard as an
21 opponent.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Are there any
23 more proponents who want to address this? If not,
24 Commissioner Barkdull, you are recognized as an
25 opponent.
42
1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, Members of
2 the Commission, I support the proposition generally
3 that people ought to obey the law and the election
4 laws, but I don't think this is going to cure what the
5 proponents want to do and it is going to raise a
6 problem which history teaches us can occur.
7 We had a change in Governors here about 40 years
8 ago and the Governor that came in wiped out every one
9 of the previous appointees because of misfeasance or
10 nonfeasance in office.
11 And it then was submitted to the Senate, the next
12 one of their occasions that they met. Now, the
13 Governor when he does that doesn't necessarily have to
14 cite the grounds. All he did was just say that they
15 weren't doing their jobs and he removed every one of
16 them, the Road Board and the Regents and everything
17 else. That was Governor Johns.
18 And what you are doing here is giving the Chief
19 Executive the power by simply executing an executive
20 order to remove people that have been elected to
21 office.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Suspend.
23 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Suspend. Well, they will
24 not be able to function in their office until the
25 Senate takes it up.
43
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct, but he can't
2 remove them.
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: You suspend them, the
4 Senate is the only one that can remove them. The
5 first place, as I pointed out, malfeasance and
6 misfeasance relates to something in an office. As
7 candidates, they are in an official office. And I
8 think this will not -- I think it opens the door. For
9 instance, you could get some Governors that have
10 exercised some arbitrary power every now and then. I
11 realize it doesn't happen often.
12 But if they didn't like a particular person that
13 was elected for one reason or another, they could
14 suspend them immediately and they don't -- the
15 candidates have been elected under this, as I
16 understand the way this proposal is supposed to
17 operate, then the Governor immediately has power once
18 they are seated to suspend them without any hearing
19 until they get to the Senate.
20 I think you are creating a very dangerous
21 situation.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott as an
23 opponent.
24 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I had a race one time
25 where --
44
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I wonder if you-all would pay
2 attention, I think it is an important issue.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I had a race one time where
4 my opponent took great liberty with the truth. Among
5 other things, he said that I was a member of the John
6 Birch Society. My wife went to a large function with
7 a lot of Jewish constituents and someone said that to
8 her. And she said, John Birch, is he from New Jersey?
9 But in any event -- and at one point, you know,
10 you do reach a point with this where I basically used
11 my best New York accent and said, at a large gathering
12 in English and Hebrew, susichripsnach (phonetic), and
13 I can't say it any more, but it meant that he was a
14 liar, you know.
15 So I suppose, technically, if I were elected to
16 the county -- you know, whatever offices this covered,
17 that the Governor could suspend me, if I had said he
18 was a liar and somehow somebody said, Well, he really
19 wasn't a liar, or something like that.
20 I just think that the precedent of carrying over
21 from conduct as a candidate to people in office -- I
22 mean, we have had some rip-roaring campaigns where
23 people have said and did whatever, and I just think
24 that that's not -- I mean you have got an Elections
25 Commission, you have got other ways, and to put that
45
1 in the Constitution -- first of all, I don't know that
2 it is constitutional, I mean, under the Federal
3 Constitution.
4 I just don't think it is a good idea. It is one
5 of the very few ideas that Commissioner Freiden has
6 had that I didn't think was the greatest one. So, I
7 would urge that we don't do this.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Brochin, does it
9 violate the First Amendment?
10 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: I think it has got
11 problems, yes.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I knew you were pretty versed
13 in that area.
14 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: Well, I want to join in in
15 the opposition. Although I think it is very well
16 intended, I agree with Commissioner Scott and
17 Commissioner Barkdull that this goes beyond, I think,
18 the intent in terms of trying to make fair campaigns.
19 The problem is simply the First Amendment, if you
20 consider that a problem. But the First Amendment
21 highly protects political speech, so to allow a
22 Governor to suspend immediately upon somebody's
23 election for actions dealing with political speech,
24 which essentially would be because of terms known as
25 misfeasance or malfeasance, which are broad in their
46
1 context and definition, I think overreaches. And it
2 is a good idea in terms of trying to get at it, and it
3 is a very, very difficult subject to get at, but I
4 don't think this is the way to do it.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Sundberg.
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I too must speak in
7 opposition. I believe Commissioner Barkdull is
8 absolutely correct. I think misfeasance and
9 malfeasance, while well-defined, are terms of art that
10 relate only to acts by people in office and not to
11 those.
12 So, if you wanted to do this you would have to
13 say malfeasance or misfeasance while in office, and
14 then describe conduct by people who were candidates
15 because I just don't think that that definition will
16 get you where you need to be and I think that
17 introduces confusion. Moreover I agree with
18 Commissioner Brochin, I think you have some very, very
19 serious First Amendment problems with this.
20 I mean, time and again the courts have said that
21 political speech is supposed to be very robust and it
22 is hard to draw the line between that which is
23 permissible and it could conceivably have a chilling
24 effect, so I must oppose it.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Nabors.
47
1 COMMISSIONER NABORS: I add to the reasons why I
2 oppose this, in addition to the others, is this is
3 classically an area that needs legislative thought.
4 We are dealing with these words of art and these types
5 of interrelationships between free speech, public
6 office and the power of the Governor. It is a classic
7 thing that we need legislation on, not constitutional
8 amendments or we may have a misintended consequence.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Don't you have a statute now
10 that allows people to be kept out of office if they do
11 certain things, Commissioner Brochin, are you familiar
12 with that?
13 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: The Governor has certainly
14 powers to suspend for misfeasance and malfeasance,
15 neglect of duty, I think drunkenness is cited in
16 there, and other reasons. But as Commissioner
17 Sundberg pointed out, those terms deal directly with
18 while they are in office, and there is no statute that
19 I know of at least that deals with the ability to
20 suspend for activity or conduct prior to being seated
21 for office.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Rundle, you are
23 blocked out by the supporters, the general counsel.
24 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: They are very good
25 blockers.
48
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Right, they are experts.
2 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: You know, I have been in
3 discussion and I have listened to what my colleagues
4 have said and I must admit that I too and many are now
5 of the opinion that it does not really accomplish what
6 we were trying to accomplish. And we did try to do
7 what Commissioner Sundberg said and we tried to list
8 out the bad acts, and what we were trying to do was to
9 give the Governor the power for -- that would extend
10 for the activities of the bad acts before they became
11 a public officer. But try as we did, I'm afraid that
12 we have failed.
13 And now the question becomes whether or not --
14 what do we do?
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's vote.
16 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Do we withdraw this or go
17 back, or what we may want to do is go back to the
18 original one. All right, so we will withdraw.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You can withdraw the
20 amendment and we will be back on the Mills' amendment.
21 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: All right. Do you want to
22 try that? Let's try that. Let's try that.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's save some time.
24 Commissioner Mills, they don't know you up there.
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: That may be good.
49
1 Mr. Chairman, with all these good efforts we still
2 haven't quite got there. My intention would be to
3 withdraw the whole thing if we can't get these
4 scholars on something that everybody agrees to, so I
5 would propose we temporarily pass it and I'm going to
6 withdraw it at the end of the day if we can't get
7 there. Because I mean this has been --
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The end of the day will be at
9 1:30.
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: That's fine.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. It won't be the end of
12 the day for the session, but it will be the end of day
13 for this. We are going to take it up at 1:30.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: It may already be the end of
15 the day for this.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think you may be just
17 delaying the ultimate result here. All right. Now,
18 let's see, here is where we are. Commissioner Rundle
19 withdrew her amendment. Commissioner Mills has
20 withdrawn his amendment; is that correct, Commissioner
21 Mills?
22 COMMISSIONER MILLS: (Inaudible).
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She withdrew her amendment,
24 and that leaves your amendment pending. And you want
25 to defer consideration of your amendment and the whole
50
1 thing until 1:30?
2 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Perfect.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Then so be it, without
4 objection. Incidentally, somebody answer this, aren't
5 judges subject to being removed from office for things
6 they committed before they took office?
7 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: They are, and under the
8 jurisdiction of the JQC they take up items that
9 occurred prior to the time they took office. That has
10 been an amendment that was approved I think in the
11 '70s.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And that's still up to the
13 Supreme Court as to what action is taken, correct?
14 All right. We are now moving to Committee Substitute
15 for Proposal 64 by the Committee on Bonding and
16 Investments. And Commissioner Nabors recommended as a
17 committee substitute and approved by the Committee on
18 Bonding and Investments with a pending amendment by
19 Commissioner Henderson. First read the proposal.
20 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Proposal
21 64, a proposal to revise Article VII, Section 11,
22 Florida Constitution; providing for state bonds
23 pledging all or part of a dedicated state tax revenue
24 or the full faith and credit of the state for certain
25 uses as provided by general law.
51
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now read the
2 amendment by -- which is moved by Commissioner
3 Henderson.
4 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Henderson, on
5 Page 2, Lines 10 through 21, delete those lines and
6 insert lengthy amendment.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now, has the amendment been
8 distributed? This is Proposal 64 with the amendment
9 which has been distributed, and it is in the red book;
10 am I right? Yes, it is in the red book toward the
11 end. If everybody would turn to it. I'm corrected,
12 this is a pink book.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I am
14 trying to make it easier for you.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are going to withdraw
16 your amendment, right?
17 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I'll be glad to. I'm
18 trying to fix your problem, Mr. Chairman.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Not mine, I don't have a
20 problem.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, the
22 easiest -- the easiest place to see the amendment is
23 on Page 156 of the journal. That is where it was
24 presented yesterday and it appears in the upper
25 right-hand corner of the page in italics, that is the
52
1 language which is Amendment 1. This is yesterday's
2 Journal, Page 156, up at the top right-hand corner,
3 Committee Substitute for Proposal 64, Amendment 1 is
4 in italics.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And that is the amendment
6 that you are proposing and that you are now wise to
7 offer?
8 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That is correct. And
9 then when we complete this, I understand there is
10 another amendment on the desk, I keep wanting to say
11 Senator Crenshaw, Commissioner Crenshaw.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But it has not been moved; is
13 that right?
14 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That's right, but I am
15 just saying, that is the posture that we are in.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. So, on Page 156 of the
17 Journal is the Amendment No. 1 which is being offered
18 by Commissioner Henderson and he rises in support.
19 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
20 I'll be very brief to try to simplify this. This is
21 similar to the language which we adopted in January
22 concerning the extension of bond authority to continue
23 to allow us to purchase conservation lands.
24 The question was raised about whether or not we
25 even needed to reference the issue, the question of
53
1 the issuance of full faith and credit. So we have
2 deleted that reference from this language, which again
3 we have already adopted. So this will simplify the
4 matter, it would go to the Committee on Style and
5 Drafting and we will put all this to bed.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
7 Barkdull.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Commissioner Henderson,
9 if this passes, this will substitute or replace 39?
10 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: This is a --
11 technically, no, because they are both live. That one
12 is already in the past, we are beyond
13 reconsiderations. My representation to you is that
14 this is the one that needs to go forward, and that's
15 what we would expect the Committee on Style and
16 Drafting to do.
17 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's the point that I
18 wanted to be sure, that Style and Drafting was aware
19 of, that this was to substitute for 39.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: In actuality, yes, sir.
21 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
23 understand -- does anybody want to debate the
24 amendment? If not, all in favor of the amendment say
25 aye. Opposed?
54
1 (Verbal vote taken.)
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now we are on
3 the Proposal 64 as amended. Another amendment.
4 Amendment on the desk by Commissioner Crenshaw. Would
5 you read his amendment, please?
6 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Crenshaw on
7 Page 2, Line --
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Pay attention please, we need
9 some order in the chamber. Just a moment.
10 READING CLERK: And insert solely between payable
11 and from.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read it again, please.
13 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Crenshaw, on
14 Page 2, Line 8, and insert solely between payable and
15 from.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Crenshaw, you
17 are recognized on your amendment.
18 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: It is fairly
19 self-explanatory, it adds the word solely. What it
20 does, Commissioners, it just puts the law back the way
21 we all want it to be before we went too far the last
22 time. So now it says that if you issue these bonds,
23 the proceeds have to be payable solely from a
24 dedicated source of revenue, it takes away the whole
25 issue of the full faith and credit of the state.
55
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Do you agree to
2 that amendment, Commissioner Henderson? All in favor
3 of the amendment say aye. Opposed?
4 (Verbal vote taken.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. It is amended.
6 And now we are on the proposal as amended, which
7 really is the language that appears on 156 adding the
8 word solely as proposed by Commissioner Crenshaw. Is
9 everybody aware now of what we are going to vote on
10 after we debate, or is there further debate on this
11 proposal? It is also pointed out by Commissioner
12 Barkdull that this is intended to replace Proposal 39
13 which we previously passed. Commissioner Henderson.
14 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, in
15 response to some of the whispering questions on this
16 side of the table, I will inform the Chair that this
17 is the last conservation measure that I am going to
18 stand on on this chamber.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, the Audubon Society
20 owes you a raise, you have done extremely well, and
21 obviously this is a green body that we have here.
22 Now, without further debate, we will take this measure
23 up on final passage. Would you open the machine and
24 we will vote.
25 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
56
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everybody voted? There
2 is one more coming. One more coming. All right.
3 Lock the machine and announce the vote.
4 READING CLERK: Twenty-six yeas, zero nays,
5 Mr. Chairman.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We will now move
7 to Committee Substitute for Proposals 138 and 89 by
8 the Committee on Education, and Commissioners Nabors
9 and Riley, recommended as a committee substitute,
10 combined with Proposal 89 and approved by the
11 Committee on Education. Would you read it, please?
12 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Proposal
13 Nos. 138 and 89, a proposal to revise Article X,
14 Section 15, Florida Constitution; limiting the use of
15 State Lottery net proceeds to financing certain
16 educational facilities or funding early childhood care
17 and education programs.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley, you are
19 recognized to present the proposal.
20 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 I'm going to give you a little bit of a history of it,
22 because we didn't have a special select committee for
23 Lottery funds. So what we did instead was to take the
24 different proposals and we have worked out a
25 compromise between three of those four proposals and
57
1 present that to you today. We heard around the state
2 about a lot of things, but we heard about the lack of
3 the correct use of Lottery funds as seen by the people
4 who voted in Lottery fund around the state. And we
5 were told that in fact Lottery funds would be used to
6 enhance education and that's not what the public has
7 seen.
8 So what we have tried to do with these proposals
9 is to put before you some very specific enhancement
10 ideas of how these Lottery funds can be used.
11 Commissioner Sundberg, Commissioner Nabors and myself
12 all had separate proposals and those have been pulled
13 together with this.
14 Commissioner Corr has a separate one which will
15 stand on its own. And also Commissioner Zack had one
16 on Lottery funds, and he is in agreement with this.
17 So I would ask your support. And Commission Nabors is
18 going to speak to the finer details.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Before you do that, we have
20 four amendments on the table -- three amendments on
21 the table. The first amendment is by Commissioner
22 Corr. And he has another one, and we will read
23 Commissioner Corr's first amendment. Please read it.
24 He moves this amendment incidentally.
25 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Corr, on Page 2,
58
1 Lines 1 through 4, delete those lines and insert
2 lengthy amendment.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Corr on your
4 amendment.
5 COMMISSIONER CORR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The
6 current proposal that was worked out -- I'm sorry, I
7 just want to make sure I'm working off the right
8 proposal. Is this the one in the red book or the pink
9 book or whatever color it is?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's in the pink book and it
11 is the last one in there.
12 COMMISSIONER CORR: Okay. What this amendment --
13 what this proposal would do is, speaking to the
14 proceeds of the Florida Lottery, is to allow those
15 proceeds to be used to build schools and allow the
16 proceeds to be used for early childhood education.
17 That's it. It would limit it to those two things. Is
18 that correct, Mr. Nabors? I'll put that in the form
19 of a question.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is not the last one in
21 there, but it is about fourth from the last.
22 COMMISSIONER NABORS: The current proposal, and
23 basically the substitute which we have agreed upon
24 which will be taken up, basically allows three uses of
25 Lottery proceeds. One is it recognizes the current
59
1 use the Legislature decided to finance public schools.
2 Secondly, it recognized the Legislature's
3 commitment existing to pre-kindergarten programs to
4 the tune of about $107 million. But then it says that
5 any additional monies would be used to either
6 establish new programs in early childhood education or
7 enhance funding levels of those that are in existence.
8 And so that's the uses that the amendment addresses.
9 COMMISSIONER CORR: All right, thank you,
10 Commissioner Nabors. So please listen carefully.
11 What has happened here, the proposal that follows
12 this, the proposal that I worked out and was passed by
13 the Committee of Education talks about some of these
14 proceeds going directly to school advisory councils.
15 That is what this amendment does.
16 What this amendment would do is take out the
17 ability for Lottery proceeds to be used to finance the
18 building of public schools. Now, we heard in every
19 public hearing, everybody that's ever served in an
20 elected office has heard since 1986 that voters are
21 upset about the fact that Lottery proceeds have not
22 been used to enhance education fully. We could argue
23 that it has been used to enhance education somewhat
24 but never probably to the degree to what was promised
25 when it was originally placed on the ballot in 1986.
60
1 Today about $2 million is raised by the Lottery,
2 at least in 1987. More than half of that goes to
3 proceeds -- I mean to prizes. It also goes to fund
4 the administration of the Lottery. What finally
5 happens is about 36 percent of the proceeds goes to
6 education.
7 You can argue that all of the way the money is
8 being used is good, it is used for scholarships, it is
9 used to help bond and build schools, it is used to
10 distribute -- a small percentage actually goes to
11 school districts. But the question of whether
12 enhancement is really taking place, obviously we have
13 heard that 100 million times, is debatable.
14 What we will do with this proposal is move in the
15 right direction of pure enhancement with the early
16 childhood programs. I would argue that that is
17 enhancement of the current education system and we
18 ought to leave that in place. But if we put in here
19 that we are going to build schools with Lottery
20 proceeds, I think that flies directly in the face of
21 what the original proposal was all about and it
22 subjects this to defeat. What we are going to do is
23 go right back to the ballot and tell people that
24 building schools is not the responsibility of the
25 state already, that building schools is an
61
1 enhancement. Well, that's not true. Building schools
2 has got to be the responsibility of the Legislature
3 with or without the Lottery.
4 So what this proposal would do is take that out,
5 it would not allow Lottery proceeds to be used -- to
6 be bonded to build public schools, but what it would
7 do is allow Lottery proceeds to go directly to school
8 advisory councils. Since the Lottery was passed, the
9 state passed Blueprint 2000 legislation in 1980, '91,
10 somewhere thereabouts, and it set up local-based
11 school advisory councils made up of parents and
12 teachers that happen at every school around the state
13 now that recommend to the Commissioner of Education
14 enhancements to their schools.
15 The best place to hand this extra money if you
16 want to really enhance education is right to the
17 parents of the individual school. Every school is
18 different. Every school has different needs for
19 enhancement. Some may need to build new facilities,
20 some may need to buy computers, some may want to spend
21 money to buy football helmets, whatever it is, the
22 enhancement ought to be decided by the teachers and
23 the parents at the individual school.
24 So what this proposal would do is allow the money
25 to be distributed directly to school advisory
62
1 councils. It will bypass the bureaucracy, bypass the
2 Department of Education and go directly to parents and
3 teachers in the individual schools themselves. This
4 is the right way to enhance the Lottery.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Question of Commissioner
7 Corr. Commissioner Corr, where is the definition of
8 the advisory council found?
9 COMMISSIONER CORR: It is found in the original
10 Blueprint 2000 legislation, so it is found in Florida
11 Statute.
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It is not in the
13 Constitution?
14 COMMISSIONER CORR: No, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I don't think this is
16 appropriate language to do what you want to do. You
17 are referring to some body that is not established in
18 the Constitution, it is only established by the
19 Legislature and they can turn around and abolish it
20 tomorrow.
21 COMMISSIONER CORR: What this does is allow it to
22 be used for school advisory councils as defined by the
23 Legislature's general law. If the Legislature decides
24 not to do that, that's fine, they can decide not to do
25 it today as well.
63
1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I don't understand the
2 Constitution speaking to a body that is not created.
3 COMMISSIONER CORR: Currently in law exist school
4 advisory councils.
5 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I don't understand the
6 Constitution to understand it that you have got to
7 refer to statutes.
8 COMMISSIONER CORR: I'm not sure that matters.
9 What I think, what this does is allow that money to be
10 used to be funded directly to school advisory councils
11 as long as they exist. The Legislature can -- what
12 this does is tell the Legislature it can't be used for
13 any other things other than early childhood
14 development and the fund -- direct funding to school
15 advisory councils for enhancement.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Corr, what you
17 are trying to do as I understand it is just strike at
18 the part that allows the use of Lottery funds to issue
19 bonds or build schools or renovate them?
20 COMMISSIONER CORR: That's correct.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's your main goal?
22 COMMISSIONER CORR: No, that's not my main goal
23 at all. There are two things. One is to strike that.
24 The other is to allow Lottery proceeds to be
25 distributed directly to school advisory councils for
64
1 enhancements.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. And that was the
3 question that was posed to you by Commissioner
4 Barkdull, as to the propriety of doing that is what
5 you were responding to?
6 COMMISSIONER CORR: Yes, sir. And that passed
7 the Committee on Education. And I'm not sure why it
8 wasn't included in this sort of joint proposal, but it
9 was something that received favorable vote, and it is
10 also a proposal that stands on its own that we will
11 hear later today.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
13 Smith was up next.
14 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you. Commissioner
15 Corr, I am very, very sympathetic to what you are
16 trying to do because I too feel that we need to try to
17 get in the local level with the parents and the
18 teachers, they know best. My concern is the
19 accountability for the money, for these groups who may
20 or may not have any experience whatsoever in handling
21 money, especially if you are talking about millions
22 and millions of dollars.
23 When you thought about it, I'm sure -- it's
24 obvious that I thought through this process and you
25 came up with advisory councils. We are all concerned
65
1 about the accountability of the month to these parents
2 and teachers who I'm sure have never handled millions
3 and millions of dollars. Maybe they had like, you
4 know, raised a little money to send the football team
5 off to the state championship, which is what mine did,
6 so did you consider that and do you have a comfort
7 level for the people that will be a little concerned
8 about the money being accounted for.
9 COMMISSIONER CORR: Thank you. Commissioner
10 Smith, I do have a comfort level for a few reasons.
11 Number one is the Legislature already directs money
12 directly to school advisory councils. They are
13 already letting school advisory councils make
14 financial decisions to enhance their own institutions.
15 The second reason I have comfort with it is because I
16 trust parents and teachers to do what's right for the
17 school. Nothing is more sacred to any of us.
18 We have heard it many times on this floor, than
19 the education of our children. And I think when they
20 get that money to be used for enhancements they are
21 going to use it right, they are going to decide what
22 their school needs on an individual basis and they are
23 going to use it right. I have trust in that.
24 The third reason is probably the weakest, but in
25 terms of accountability, this is the Lottery and it
66
1 was designed for enhancement. We could take the
2 proceeds from the Lottery and flush them down the
3 toilet and we still ought to be funding public schools
4 to a maximum level in the State of Florida. So
5 accountability or not, this is enhancement dollars.
6 You know, last year there was 821 million after
7 prizes and administration. That ought to go to the
8 teachers and parents and they ought to use it to
9 enhance their schools. If some of them waste a little
10 bit of it, well, it won't be the first time in state
11 government that money was wasted. I'll bet it is
12 going to be wasted less by those individuals right in
13 their local classrooms.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Rundle.
15 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Question, Commissioner
16 Corr. I too am very sympathetic to your proposition
17 and what it is you are trying to accomplish. My
18 concern is if you wanted to put your skeptic's hat on,
19 are you not concerned that the Legislature could
20 abolish these advisory school councils, advisory
21 boards rather, and then allow them the control to deal
22 with these Lottery monies; and how do we prevent that?
23 COMMISSIONER CORR: Well, first of all, if this
24 amendment passed, the Legislature could do away with
25 school advisory councils but at that point the only
67
1 place they could -- the only way they could spend
2 money is on early childhood programs because it will
3 say that right in the Constitution.
4 So, if they do away with school advisory
5 councils, they can't distribute those lottery proceeds
6 anywhere else other than early childhood education.
7 There is no reason for the Legislature to ever do away
8 with those school advisory councils that provide input
9 back to them for what's best for their school. And it
10 is also -- will be now, under this proposal, the place
11 that Lottery enhancements end up being spent.
12 So that's a valid issue. But they would be
13 limited in the Constitution from spending the money
14 anywhere else if they did that, other than early
15 childhood programs.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley.
17 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Mr. Chairman, I have an
18 amendment to Commissioner Corr's amendment. And
19 perhaps if we could TP this issue for a short bit of
20 time we can work that out and come to a total
21 agreement. What I would --
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is it on the table?
23 COMMISSIONER RILEY: They are preparing it.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have got three others, or
25 two others.
68
1 COMMISSIONER CORR: Can I inquire what the nature
2 of the amendment is?
3 COMMISSIONER RILEY: What I would like to do is
4 add back in the financing and refinancing portion and
5 to leave in the student advisory council section, but
6 add to that "as defined by general law" which takes
7 care of Commissioner Barkdull's -- does it not? Well,
8 whatever words would take care of that problem.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What you are asking to do is
10 to TP 138 and 89 as we are now on and 118 which is the
11 subject matter of what he is doing here, and allow you
12 an opportunity to work on this and bring it back up
13 today; is that right?
14 COMMISSIONER RILEY: In addition, it would be
15 143, which is Commissioner Sundberg's Lottery fund
16 proposal which is part of this, and Commissioner
17 Zack's proposal 54, which also deals with Lottery fund
18 use, and all of those would be wrapped into this one
19 proposal.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'll tell you what, we have
21 had a lot of meetings on this. If we start taking a
22 recess every time somebody can't agree on an
23 amendment, you can vote this one down and offer your
24 own if you don't like it. Commissioner Crenshaw?
25 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: Mr. Chairman, I have an
69
1 amendment that if I offer I think will frame the issue
2 and then we can kind of discuss it, and if it passes,
3 all this stuff will kind of take a backseat. I would
4 propose, and I'd like to offer that amendment right
5 now as a substitute.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Can you wait just a minute?
7 The Secretary informs me the best way to do this is TP
8 Commissioner Corr's amendment and move to the next
9 amendment and then you can file your amendment and put
10 it on the table and it will come in order.
11 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: What, Mr. Chairman, what
12 my amendment does is basically say we are not going to
13 decide as a commission that we are going to supersede
14 the Legislature. I think we have a debate on that and
15 we decide, if that's not the philosophy, then we can
16 talk about how you want to spend it. But if we decide
17 the philosophy is we are not going to tell them how to
18 spend it, then we will get rid of this issue.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Just offer yours as an
20 amendment and then we will -- is it on the table?
21 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It is on the desk.
22 Everybody has got it.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Everybody has got it, all
24 right. We are going to TP the Corr amendment and the
25 other amendments, and at this time we are going to
70
1 move to Commissioner Crenshaw's amendment which is on
2 the table. Would you read it?
3 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Crenshaw, on
4 Page 1, Lines 27 through 30 and Page 2, Lines 1
5 through 16, delete and insert lengthy amendment.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Crenshaw, tell
7 us what that does.
8 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: Well, you've got to read
9 what it inserts and basically it just says this,
10 Commissioners, it says the net proceeds derived from
11 the Lottery shall be used to support improvements in
12 public education and such proceeds shall not be used
13 as a substitute for existing resources for public
14 education.
15 And the reason I offer that, Mr. Chairman, is so
16 we can decide as a body on whether we want to take the
17 place of the Legislature and decide how we ought to
18 spend the money and write that in the Constitution, or
19 we can simply say, as this amendment proposes, that we
20 are going to use the money for education. Because if
21 you read the Constitution, the amendment that was
22 passed in 1986 by 86 percent of the people didn't say
23 the money had to go to education, but everybody felt
24 like it did, and for the last 12 years every year it
25 has gone for education.
71
1 And so what this simply does is write into the
2 Constitution -- I have been moved by some of the
3 people who talk about aspirational language, this is
4 aspirational language. It says once and for all, when
5 somebody says, A, is this enhancing or is this being
6 substituted, you can all go back and point to the
7 Constitution and say, It says in the Florida
8 Constitution that this money goes to education, it
9 goes to enhance education, and you can't use it to
10 substitute other monies.
11 Now, if you believe that you will vote for this
12 amendment, and, frankly, I don't see how you cannot
13 vote for that because that's what everybody believes.
14 And once you do that, then you can later on decide if
15 you want to tell the Legislature how to spend their
16 money, that's your business. And that's what these
17 proposals do.
18 And I can tell you from a perspective of history,
19 over the years there have been raging debates about
20 how to spend the money. When the Lottery was first
21 adopted in 1987 I thought the best thing to do would
22 be put the money in the bank, wait until the end of
23 the year and say at the end of the year, Here is some
24 money we would not have had if we didn't have a
25 Lottery.
72
1 And that first year was $315 million, and then we
2 could say to the people of Florida, Look, we have a
3 Lottery, we have got $315 million, let's decide how we
4 are going to spend it. And you could all see, maybe
5 we buy a school bus, maybe we build a new building,
6 whatever it is, people could see, in my view, a great
7 public relations tool. That's the way I think we
8 should have done it.
9 But I was a freshman Senator at the time and I
10 had just chaired the Lottery committee and had spent a
11 year and a half writing the law, and they said, That
12 is a good law, but $315 million, we will spend that
13 the way we want to spend it, and it was spent. And
14 that's been the raging debate for the last 12 years.
15 And every year people say, Are they enhancing
16 education, are they not enhancing education. This
17 says that once you draw it into the Constitution, it
18 is going to enhance education and it is not going to
19 be used to substitute existing funds, it is as simple
20 as that.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So, as I
22 understand it, you are proposing that to be in the
23 first part of the amendment that says the net proceeds
24 are going to be used to enhance education; is that
25 right?
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1 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: Well, actually what I was
2 going to do, Mr. Chairman, was offer that as a
3 substitute and then all of the other amendments would
4 go away, but -- so right now we are on this amendment.
5 If we adopt it, that's going to be part of the
6 Constitution. You can still proceed with these other
7 provisions and decide how you want to spend it if
8 that's the will. But I think to start with, this
9 settles that issue once and for all.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are not trying to address
11 deleting these other items at this point, you are just
12 making sure that the statement is that it is going to
13 be used?
14 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: Now I'm deleting -- if
15 you adopt this amendment, you will do away with where
16 you spend the money. Somebody can come back and amend
17 that to do that, but my amendment will do away with
18 where you spend the money and just simply say the
19 language.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are then moving --
21 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: It strikes all of the
22 other language in your 138 book.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. So what's on Page 2
24 would be struck in your amendment. And then what you
25 are saying is you can revisit that if we adopt your
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1 amendment; is that right?
2 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: That's right.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Does everybody
4 understand that? Commission Jennings.
5 COMMMISSIONER JENNINGS: Question of Commissioner
6 Crenshaw, and it is more to get some dialogue so we
7 can share this with the body I think. Commissioner
8 Crenshaw you know during our special session we just
9 appropriated a portion of the revenues from the
10 Lottery to support the bonds for the next 20 years for
11 school construction.
12 I think if your amendment would pass, and the
13 issue should pass on the ballot, we would then have
14 some problem with our bond collateral. Since this is
15 sort of your business, would you explain to me if
16 there is something we need to be concerned about, or
17 could we just go find some other revenue source to
18 collateralize the bonds?
19 COMMISSIONER CRENSHAW: As I understand --
20 COMMISSIONER JENNINGS: And the only reason I'm
21 asking that is because there are those who would
22 define the fact that school construction and the
23 building of schools is not an enhancement to education
24 because that is a responsibility -- we had that debate
25 as well, that is a responsibility of the state and the
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1 local school system to build these schools.
2 So, just because we are building more schools
3 isn't an enhancement, that's our origin |
