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1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
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COMMISSION MEETING
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DATE: February 9, 1997
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TIME: Commenced at 1:00 p.m.
11 Concluded at 5:50 p.m.
12 PLACE: The Senate Chamber
The Capitol
13 Tallahassee, Florida
14 REPORTED BY: KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
JULIE L. DOHERTY
15 MONA L. WHIDDON
Court Reporters
16 Division of Administrative Hearings
The DeSoto Building
17 1230 Apalachee Parkway
Tallahassee, Florida
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1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ (ABSENT)
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
PAT BARTON
6 ROBERT M. BROCHIN
THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
7 KEN CONNOR
CHRIS CORR (EXCUSED)
8 SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW
VALERIE EVANS
9 MARILYN EVANS-JONES
BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
10 ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
PAUL HAWKES
11 WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS
12 THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
DICK LANGLEY
13 JOHN F. LOWNDES
STANLEY MARSHALL
14 JACINTA MATHIS
JON LESTER MILLS
15 FRANK MORSANI
ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
16 CARLOS PLANAS
JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
17 KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
SENATOR JIM SCOTT
18 H. T. SMITH (EXCUSED UNTIL 4:21 p.m.)
ALAN C. SUNDBERG
19 JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON
PAUL WEST
20 JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON (ABSENT)
STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
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IRA H. LEESFIELD (ABSENT)
22 LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN (EXCUSED)
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1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Roll taken and recorded electronically.)
3 SECRETARY BLANTON: Unauthorized visitors, please
4 leave the chamber. All commissioners indicate your
5 presence.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Madam Secretary, are we
7 ready?
8 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If everybody
10 would please take their seats. Will the commissioners
11 and guests in the gallery please rise for the opening
12 prayer, given this afternoon by the Reverend John F.
13 Green by the Bethel A.M.E. Church in Tallahassee.
14 Reverend Green, if you would come forward, please.
15 REVEREND GREEN: Let us pray. Eternal God, who
16 committest to us the swift and solemn trust of life,
17 since we know not what a day may bring forth but only
18 that the hour for serving thee is always present, may
19 we approach the afternoon of this day with the zeal to
20 do thy holy will. Increase in us, O God, a true
21 knowledge of thy holy will so that we may devote
22 ourselves to thy service in word and deed, and that
23 doing thy will with cheerfulness and diligence, and
24 bearing all of our trials with patience, we may go on,
25 through thy mercy into the joy of everlasting life.
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1 Amen.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you. Commissioner
3 Langley, will you come forward, please, and lead us in
4 the Pledge of Allegiance.
5 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I have been informed that
7 Commissioner Corr's father died over the weekend. He
8 was apparently in a tractor accident resulting in his
9 death. And so Commissioner Corr will not be with us
10 this week because of that, and we all, I think, really
11 want to extend to him and his family our sincere
12 sympathy during their bereavement. Sudden deaths of
13 this nature are always quite hard and we know what
14 he's going through.
15 All right. We'll now proceed to the daily order
16 of business. And I recognize the Chairman of Rules
17 Committee, Commissioner Barkdull.
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 Members of the Commission, you have on your desk the
20 calendar of the Commission for today and the remainder
21 of this week; it's blocked out on the first page. You
22 will note that you also have on your desk a gold
23 packet. This is the order of the proposals that will
24 be considered on the special order. And if we do not
25 conclude these today, of course, retain these because
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1 we will pick up tomorrow where we left off today.
2 There are committee meetings scheduled, as you
3 will notice on the block calendar, for this afternoon,
4 the Select Committee on Initiatives, and tomorrow
5 afternoon, the Select Committee on Sovereign Immunity.
6 And Commissioner Mills, do you have any report on the
7 Select Committee on Article V?
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills, you are
9 recognized.
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, yes, we met
11 this morning and have made some progress. We intend
12 to meet again this afternoon in Room 317C at five
13 o'clock.
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: As you have indicated in
15 the materials that were indicated to you last week,
16 the Chairman has set three public hearings. The one
17 in March, which will be up here, on Friday, March the
18 20th, will be a televised call-in program from around
19 the state. As has been indicated in the previous
20 materials sent to you, there will only be a limited
21 participation by members of the Commission. Those of
22 you that would like to attend that, I suggest that you
23 deliver your names to the executive director or
24 another member of the staff.
25 And with that, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
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1 announcements, and we are ready to proceed to the
2 order of business on reconsideration and special
3 order.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The first item on
5 reconsideration is Proposal 107, which we have
6 deferred a couple of times, and it was on a motion to
7 reconsider. The motion to reconsider has not been
8 voted on as to whether or not it will be reconsidered.
9 I believe that's correct; is it not, Commissioner?
10 Correct.
11 So, what we have to do first is vote whether or
12 not to reconsider Proposal 107, which was -- did not
13 receive a majority vote when it came up on
14 January 14th, 1998, and therefore it's here now on
15 reconsideration. Incidentally, the rules allow the
16 debate on a motion to reconsider on the issue of
17 whether or not to reconsider since the underlying
18 question is a proposal. Therefore, the debate is
19 limited to whether or not we grant reconsideration.
20 It's not to be a debate on the merits. The debate on
21 the merits would come if the vote for reconsideration
22 carries. And it requires a majority of those present
23 and voting to carry.
24 With that, I believe I'm right, am I not, Madam
25 Secretary? Reasonably close. And who would like to
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1 be recognized on the motion to reconsider? I think it
2 was made by Commissioner Connor. You are recognized,
3 Commissioner Connor.
4 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you. It's not my
5 intention to belabor the discussion that we have
6 already had as it relates to this matter. In terms of
7 why I believe you should reconsider this matter, I
8 would simply call your attention to two different news
9 articles that have come to light since our last
10 discussion which I feel may have a bearing on your
11 decision to reconsider or not.
12 One of those articles published in the Orlando
13 Sentinnel most recently reported on a settlement in a
14 lawsuit that was arrived at with respect to a claim
15 filed on behalf of parents against a church in the
16 Orlando area where the church had, without the
17 parents' consent, baptized their children.
18 As a consequence of that, and frankly, I don't
19 know if they were sprinkled and dunked, as far as that
20 goes, but the upshot of it was that a claim was
21 brought against the church or a violation of privacy
22 rights and the rights of the parents to secure and to
23 protect and to bring forth the upbringing of their
24 children and said that this church acted in a tortious
25 manner in acting without their consent.
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1 So, by sprinkling them or dunking the children,
2 under those circumstances, that gave rise to a private
3 cause of action, which ultimately resulted in a
4 settlement.
5 In a second case, I read a report in the Saturday
6 edition of the St. Petersburg Times in which the State
7 Supreme Court ruled that two 15-year-old Ocala boys
8 who had had sex with 12-year-old girls could be
9 prosecuted under one of Florida's statutory rape laws.
10 That was a unanimous decision. The Court stated that
11 whatever privacy interest a 15-year-old minor has in
12 carnal intercourse is clearly outweighed by the
13 State's interest in protecting 12-year-old children
14 from harmful sexual conduct, irrespective of whether
15 the 12-year-old consented to the sexual activity.
16 Justice Harry Lee Amstead wrote for the Court,
17 according to the report of the Times.
18 I only bring those matters to the body's
19 attention, Mr. Chairman, to demonstrate what I believe
20 is a schizophrenic pattern that's developed as it
21 relates to the ability of minor children to consent to
22 medical treatments, specifically, to abortion. And I
23 urge your favorable reconsideration of the vote.
24 Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Your debate was well within
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1 the limits of anybody's requirements. Commissioner
2 Langley.
3 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 I would like to add to that, in conversation with
5 Commissioner Connor and others, if perhaps this matter
6 could be reconsidered and tabled for now, that a
7 fall-back position, so to speak, a parental
8 notification might be considered that would solve a
9 lot of the problems that were brought up by some of
10 the opponents of this. We did not have that
11 opportunity previously and that opportunity would be
12 before us if we were to reconsider it.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does anyone else
14 want to be heard on the motion to reconsider? If not,
15 we'll proceed to vote. All in favor of
16 reconsideration, say aye. Opposed?
17 (Verbal vote taken.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Chair is in doubt, unlock the
19 machine. All right. Everybody vote? I think there
20 were more present than have voted.
21 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
22 READING CLERK: Thirteen yeas, 14 nays,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: If I voted and made it a tie,
25 it wouldn't help, would it? Record me -- oh, you have
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1 already announced it. Record me as voting yea. All
2 right. We'll move on the next item. Committee
3 Substitute for Proposals 138 and 89 by the Committee
4 on Education. Commissioners Nabors and Riley. Let's
5 see, it's on reconsideration. The motion was made to
6 reconsider by somebody. Who made the motion to
7 reconsider? Commissioner Barkdull.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: The journal or calendar
9 indicates that it was made by Commissioner Alfonso.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
11 Alfonso moved to reconsider the vote by which
12 Committee Substitute for Proposals 138 and 89 by the
13 Committee on Education and Article IX, by
14 Commissioners Nabors and Riley. Would you read that
15 please?
16 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Proposal
17 Nos. 138 and 89, a proposal to revise Article IX,
18 Section 15, Florida Constitution; limiting the use of
19 State Lottery net proceeds to financing certain
20 educational facilities or funding early childhood care
21 and education programs.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Who wants to be
23 heard on the motion to reconsider?
24 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Mr. Chairman, I would urge
25 a motion to reconsider. If you will recall, we
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1 discussed whether or not -- what some of the committee
2 uses should be, particularly the parent councils. We
3 had a conference call this week and worked out all of
4 the language. It's not on the desk yet, but I would
5 like us to reconsider it and temporarily table it to
6 the amendments on the desk.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The sponsor, one
8 of the sponsors and I presume the other one, urges you
9 to vote for the motion to reconsider. All in favor of
10 reconsideration say yea.
11 (Verbal vote taken.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is reconsidered. Now,
13 it's on reconsideration. You have a motion,
14 Commissioner Nabors?
15 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Chairman, I would like to
16 temporarily table it. We have an amendment which
17 deals with the issue of potential appropriations to
18 school advisory councils and also the issue of the
19 phasing in of the Lottery money, which has been agreed
20 to in a conference call, but I don't think the
21 amendment is on the table as yet.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I can tell you that I have
23 had indications that there's more amendments than that
24 that are going to be posed, and this will not be just
25 a single amendment process. Commissioner Scott, you
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1 are recognized.
2 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I tried to be
3 recognized on that motion to reconsider and I wasn't.
4 And those motions are debatable.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's right. And we allowed
6 the debate in the previous one.
7 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well, I just wanted to make
8 a point. I tried to be recognized.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, go ahead and make your
10 point. I would love for you to make it.
11 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: That was the point. Did it
12 fail?
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I didn't see you or I would
14 have recognized you. All right. We are moving on to
15 the special order. Oh, wait, all in favor of
16 temporarily passing Proposals 138 and 89, signify by
17 saying yea. Opposed?
18 (Verbal vote taken.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: To temporarily pass it. I'm
20 going to rule it passed. Commissioner Barkdull.
21 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: How long, until the end
22 of the day or until when?
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think the proper motion is
24 to postpone to a time certain, which requires a
25 majority vote. There was no motion to a time certain.
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1 I would so recognize such a motion.
2 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, if we don't have
3 that, it's going to reoccur tomorrow on our motions
4 for reconsideration; is that correct?
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It'll just go back on the
6 calendar, not for reconsideration. But if you want to
7 move to delay it to a time certain, I think that's
8 appropriate.
9 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'll consider it. I want
10 to wait a while though.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Well, right now
12 it's in limbo for the rest of the afternoon. It can
13 be brought back up. At this point, we move to the
14 special order calendar for today. We left Proposal
15 No. 40 by Commissioner Marshall when we adjourned or
16 recessed last meeting. And at this point, it was
17 amended and consideration deferred until today. Now,
18 can you read, first of all, can you read the proposal
19 as amended?
20 READING CLERK: Proposal 40, Proposal to revise
21 Article IX, Section 4 of the Florida Constitution;
22 authorizing certain counties to be divided into more
23 than one school district.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Can you read those? All
25 right. There have been two amendments that were
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1 adopted at the last session, one by Commissioner Riley
2 and one by Commissioner Butterworth. I would like to
3 ask the clerk to read those two amendments.
4 All right. They are in the journal if you will
5 turn to your journal we won't have to read them.
6 Those amendments were adopted, one by Commissioner
7 Riley and one by Commissioner Butterworth. They are
8 on Page -- the last page of what we got today, which
9 is 161. Is everybody in tune on this now?
10 We are going to proceed with the debate on the
11 proposal. And there were two amendments that have
12 already been adopted. The first amendment, which you
13 will see in the journal, changed the number -- 45,000
14 to 75,000. That was by Commissioner Riley. And then
15 Commissioner Butterworth moved the -- was moved by
16 Commissioner Marshall on Page 1, Line 14, delete and
17 add. And what it did, you will have to read it, it's
18 fairly long. All right.
19 Who is ready to debate this, Commissioner
20 Marshall? We have another amendment on the table.
21 Commissioner Mills has an amendment on the table.
22 Would you read the amendment, please?
23 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Mills, on page 1,
24 Line 14, through Page 2, Line 4, delete those lines
25 and insert lengthy amendment.
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1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills, you are
2 recognized to explain your amendment.
3 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, actually this
4 is not a lengthy amendment, it's only the inclusion of
5 the words, After Federal law, on Line 11 and, To
6 ensure racial and ethnic balance. Let me explain the
7 purpose of this. It's my understanding that the
8 intention of this is to create school districts that
9 are smaller, more manageable, provide additional
10 access and are better for our students and for
11 parents, a cause with which I agree.
12 It's also my understanding it's not the intention
13 to return to separate but equal schools in an
14 unconstitutional way. I have a particular case that I
15 think demonstrates the need to consider racial and
16 ethnic balance. This is a 1989 case, and it is
17 Spencer vs. State. There was a statute, which is
18 surprisingly analogous, 40.015, which authorizes
19 counties of more than 50,000 to determine their
20 boundaries of jury districts at a smaller number,
21 6,000, specifically. This particular case involved a
22 Palm Beach district which was divided north and south,
23 in which the west half of the district ended up being
24 approximately a jury pool of 50 percent
25 African-American. And the jury pool on the east side
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1 of the county ended up being 90 -- approximately
2 97 percent white.
3 The Supreme Court decided that this was
4 unconstitutional, and all I would suggest here is that
5 this Commission needs to emphasize that any passage of
6 smaller districts is not done for the purpose of
7 creating racial divisions or apartheid. And this
8 simply adds the words, And to ensure racial or ethnic
9 balance. I will be glad to answer your questions.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
11 understand the amendment? Commissioner Marshall, this
12 is your original proposal, which has now been amended
13 to be 75,000 population counties, and has now, it's
14 been amended before, but now it's being amended to add
15 the provisions that were discussed by Commissioner
16 Mills. Would you like to be heard on the amendment?
17 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank
18 you. With respect to the two earlier amendments, I am
19 in favor of those, I think they strengthen the
20 proposal. And maybe this one does too, I'm not sure.
21 If you will grant me the opportunity to ask
22 Commissioner Mills a question or two.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have that opportunity.
24 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: The sentiment being
25 expressed by those words, those new words,
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1 Commissioner Mills, I'm totally in harmony with. As a
2 matter of fact, if I thought this proposal intended to
3 order or provide an opportunity for any kind of racial
4 resegregation or that kind of differentiation of
5 communities, I wouldn't have proposed it. So, the
6 idea you advance, I'm very much in favor of. My
7 question has to do with the meaning of racial and
8 ethnic balance. I would not want to deny anybody in
9 the community, racial groups, ethnic groups, or
10 anybody else, the right to express themselves on what
11 sort of schools they attend and what kind of division
12 they would undertake. Can you define further racial
13 and ethnic balance, as the courts might interpret
14 that?
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
16 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Commissioner Marshall, the
17 case I referred to, in talking about the jury pool's
18 unconstitutionality suggested that what a
19 constitutional jury pool would be would be one that
20 reflected a true cross-section of the county with no
21 systematic exclusion of any group in the jury
22 selection process, and it does not otherwise violate
23 the protection requirements. So, it would be my
24 intention and understanding that this would emphasize
25 that requirement. And as it's articulated in this
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1 section, it says, All of which shall be -- all issues
2 shall be subject to review and approval by the circuit
3 court in compliance with state and federal law and to
4 ensure racial and ethnic balance.
5 In the context, it would be my intention that the
6 circuit court would consider the racial and ethnic
7 balance as representative of the county. And I simply
8 think that it's almost in the sense fair notice
9 because I believe that if they didn't do it, it would
10 be unconstitutional.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
12 understand? Any further debate on the amendment?
13 Does everybody understand the amendment? Do you have
14 anything further? You had the floor, Commissioner
15 Marshall.
16 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 With Commissioner Mills' response to my question and
18 with the understanding that the meaning might be
19 further clarified, since we agree on the intent by
20 style and drafting, I would support the amendment.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further
22 discussion on the amendment? If not, we'll vote on
23 the amendment. All in favor, say aye. Opposed?
24 (Verbal vote taken.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's adopted. Now, we are on
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1 the proposal as amended. It's been amended now three
2 times. Would you like to close, or at least tell us
3 now what it really tells, Commissioner Marshall, it's
4 your proposal? Commissioner Sundberg, I'll call on
5 you if you have a proposal.
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I have a question, but it
7 can wait until he has explained this.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's, for the benefit of all
9 of us, to refresh us on where we were Friday,
10 Commissioner Marshall, can you give us briefly what
11 this does and then let Commissioner Sundberg ask his
12 question and then you may proceed then.
13 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I heard
14 that comment about briefly and I heard you use the
15 word close.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I didn't really mean close.
17 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Let me point out that
18 there were only 21 or 22 members of the Commission in
19 the chamber when we debated this the last time.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are absolutely right.
21 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: So, if it's not an
22 imposition, I would like to as briefly as possible go
23 through the brief arguments in favor of this proposal.
24 May I do that, sir? When we considered this proposal
25 on January the 28th, I distributed a packet of
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1 information, or rather the staff did, on selective
2 aspects of Florida's public schools. And I walked you
3 through those, those of you who were present. And I
4 won't take time to do that again, but I think the data
5 included there does have some bearing on this issue
6 and I hope to get your vote on it. And I suspect that
7 the staff still has copies of those, and if they are
8 available and those of you that weren't here on the
9 28th of January and would like a copy, I suspect one
10 would be available.
11 That information, those data were provided in
12 belief that facts ought to trump assumptions. I beg
13 your pardon, trump opinions. Most of the time, if we
14 are fully in possession about the facts about our
15 schools, we can avoid much of the time-wasting
16 arguments about whether the schools are good or bad.
17 The facts are stubborn things, and the schools are
18 what the facts show them to be.
19 Incidentally, in the exchange on the 28th,
20 Commissioner Morsani discovered a discrepancy that
21 escaped our attention. This one having to do with the
22 percentage of staff members who are classroom
23 teachers. We had two sets of data, one prepared by
24 the Department of Education showing the figure to be
25 88 percent, another prepared by a national
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1 organization that collects school data showing it to
2 be 48 percent. Those two figures are not easy to
3 reconcile.
4 I went back to the Department of Education and
5 had them recalculate their figures, and they now give
6 me a figure of about 81 percent of professional staff
7 who are teachers, to clear up that discrepancy,
8 Commissioner Morsani. Proposal 40 would authorize the
9 Legislature, subject to local referendum, to subsidize
10 our larger county school districts into smaller
11 districts, which I believe would be more manageable,
12 more accountable, and more responsive. The idea
13 behind proposal 40 was a proposal by Representative
14 Tom Warren, a Republican, and Senator Ron Kline, a
15 Democrat.
16 Proposal 40 addresses the matter of school
17 district size by stipulating the following, this is
18 the brief part. Counties with more than 75,000,
19 75,000 students would be permitted to vote to divide
20 the district into two or more districts. The newly
21 established districts would have no fewer than 15,000
22 students.
23 A special law must be enacted to establish a
24 commission which would draw school district boundary
25 lines. The boundary lines drawn by the commission
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1 would then be subject to review and approved in
2 circuit court for compliance with applicable state and
3 federal law. Funding for operations and capital
4 outlay would be calculated on a county-wide basis and
5 allocated as provided by general law.
6 The school districts eligible to conduct a
7 referendum on the question of subdividing would be
8 Dade, Broward, Hillsborough, Palm Beach, Duval,
9 Orange, and Pinellas. Polk County appears to be right
10 at about 75,000, so that could possibly make an eighth
11 county.
12 Research by professor Lawrence Kenney at the
13 University of Florida indicates that the lowest
14 administrative cost, per student, occurs in school
15 districts with 30 to 50,000 students, and that test
16 scores are significantly higher in those districts.
17 But the most compelling argument, Commissioners,
18 in favor of Proposal 40 is not reduced costs, or
19 improved student performance, in my opinion, but the
20 opportunity smaller school districts would provide for
21 better accountability and better responsiveness.
22 The historic theme of the American public school
23 is that of a neighborhood institution in which
24 citizens elect from among their friends and neighbors
25 people to serve on school boards, and so to represent
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1 the interest of parents and taxpayers, and what is
2 surely the most important and the most personal
3 involvement of citizens in their government.
4 The system worked well throughout most of our
5 country's history, but the condition of many public
6 schools today, especially those in the large cities,
7 compels us to reexamine the structure of public
8 education.
9 Dade is Florida's most populous county. It has
10 350,000 students and nine school board members. I
11 find it beyond belief to think that any of the parents
12 of those 350,000 students has any realistic
13 expectation of getting his or her ideas or opinions
14 about the schools into the hands of a member of the
15 school board. A little Florida history might be in
16 order. The Newman (phonetic) Foundation that
17 established this 67 school districts in 67 counties
18 was established by the Legislature in 1947. That's
19 when the decision was made to organize school
20 districts on a county-wide basis. Florida's
21 population then was 2,221,305 people. And the student
22 population in Dade County was 55,539 students.
23 One of the issues on which the people, and nearly
24 all professional educators, agree is that the
25 management of our schools should be decentralized.
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1 That's why we have gone to site-based management,
2 school advisory councils, and greatly increased
3 authority by school principals. We seem to have
4 sought every available opportunity within the present
5 structure to move the authority and responsibility for
6 schools closer to the site where teaching and learning
7 occur.
8 Meanwhile, we have clung to an organizational
9 structure that is the very antithesis of local
10 control. And if you are refuting how other states are
11 organized for the delivery of educational services,
12 for your information, the number of school districts
13 in the United States is today about 15,000 down from
14 about 150,000 a few years ago. Today, Alabama has 127
15 districts; California about 1,000; Colorado, 176;
16 Georgia, 181; Michigan, 555; New Jersey, 582; New
17 York, 711; Ohio, 611; Texas, 1,044; Wisconsin, 427,
18 and so on. A few states have districts -- a few
19 states have fewer districts than Florida, but they are
20 mostly the less populous states; Nevada, Rhode Island,
21 Utah, Delaware, and Wyoming.
22 Commissioner Freidin, in our debate on
23 January 28th, asked whether school boards now have the
24 authority to undertake organizational changes that
25 would bring decision-making closer to individual
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1 schools and the parents that they now serve. And the
2 answer is that school boards do have a good bit of
3 authority to do that sort of thing. But the question
4 in return is, then, why haven't they? I know the
5 answer to that, and I suspect that most of you do too.
6 The superintendents and the school boards preside as
7 an organization that provides their basic power, their
8 standing in the community, and their resources. I
9 would not expect them to be enthusiastic about
10 reducing in size the organization over which they
11 preside, and in some cases, which they helped to
12 create.
13 School administrators seem to be looking for ways
14 to accomplish in a limited way what Proposal 40 will
15 provide. The superintendent in Orange County has
16 recently proposed a decentralization plan, about which
17 the Orlando Sentinnel on January the 28th wrote to
18 describe the present school beuracracy. And I quote,
19 "The principal reports to a senior director who
20 reports to an associate superintendent, who reports to
21 a deputy superintendent, who reports to the
22 superintendent." Yes, the school board has the
23 authority to change that, and I believe they would be
24 more inclined to do so in smaller districts.
25 Let me close with a plea of desperation. No, I'm
26
1 not making a desperate plea for your support; you will
2 exercise your own good judgment and your conscience as
3 you vote on this issue. The desperate part comes as I
4 express my feelings about the need to do something to
5 rescue the children in some of our schools. I remind
6 you that it's been 44 years since the United States
7 Supreme Court handed down their opinion in Brown vs.
8 Board of Education. The minority children who were to
9 benefit are still the major victims in an inadequate
10 system of education. It's been 15 years since we were
11 told in a nation at risk that the state of American
12 public education was the moral equivalent of war
13 against our people. And I ask you, is there anyone
14 here who believes we are winning that war?
15 Finally, let me remind you that Proposal 40 does
16 not impose anything upon the people of Florida; it
17 simply gives the people the freedom to vote on a
18 structural change in the way their schools are
19 operated. And if they fail to exercise that option
20 now or if we fail to give them the opportunity to
21 exercise that option now, it's very unlikely that they
22 will have it again for at least another 20 years. I
23 respectfully ask for your support of Proposal 40.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody else want
25 to be heard? Commissioner Sundberg.
27
1 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: For a question of
2 Commissioner Marshall.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
4 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Marshall, I
5 would like to understand how the mechanics, or you
6 perceive the mechanics for work to divide a county up
7 into more than one district and how financing will
8 take place after that. At Line 8 of the amendment, it
9 says that this commission made up of residents shall,
10 among other things, allocate assets and provide for
11 contractual obligations, debts, bonded indebtedness to
12 the school district. How will they provide for bonded
13 indebtedness; do you perceive that it would be divided
14 amongst the new districts? And also, at Line 12, we
15 are starting at Line 11, it says, Funding for
16 operation and capital outlay in school districts,
17 divided pursuant to this section, shall be determined
18 on a county-wide basis.
19 And then it goes on to say, Local taxes in
20 counties shall be divided pursuant to the section,
21 include voted millage for bonded indebtedness shall be
22 levied on a county-wide basis. How is the debt to be
23 divided amongst more than one district and then at the
24 same time, thereafter, there be county-wide
25 participation? How do you perceive that working, sir?
28
1 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Commissioner Sundberg, I
2 don't perceive. There are many questions and many
3 answers in this proposal that I simply cannot answer,
4 because I don't know how it'll work. I express in
5 supporting the proposal, express my confidence in the
6 Legislature to appoint a commission that would address
7 those questions in some detail. I acknowledge that
8 it's complex, it's not a simple matter. I do not know
9 the answer to either of those questions.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner West.
11 COMMISSIONER WEST: I have a question for the
12 Commissioner.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
14 COMMISSIONER WEST: And I apologize, Commissioner
15 Marshall, for not being here when it was discussed
16 last time. And the question that I am going to ask
17 you, you know, may have been fully explained. But
18 have you gotten any feedback? You mentioned how seven
19 counties are affected by that 75,000 threshold,
20 possibly an eighth with Polk County; was that right?
21 Have you gotten any feedback or a response from these
22 eight counties?
23 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: We haven't gotten a
24 response from the eight counties that could be
25 affected. And I would expect that the school
29
1 establishment would begin by asking some very probing
2 questions, that their support might very well depend
3 upon the answers to those questions.
4 I suspect that many of those very delicate
5 questions will be answered, I know they will be, by
6 the commissions, the commission established by the
7 Legislature. And that, if adequate answers cannot be
8 provided to such complex questions, the people will
9 simply not vote for approval of the redistricting.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody else want
11 to be heard? Commissioner Morsani.
12 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: Commissioner Marshall, you
13 and I discussed briefly the size of 15,000. I get a
14 little worried about the 22 districts in Dade County,
15 as an example, and the eight or nine in Hillsborough
16 County and these counties that are continuing to grow.
17 I think all of us are in sympathy with the idea. How
18 to get there is what we are struggling with.
19 And the idea of 15,000 students in today's
20 environment, we go back to the size. I mean, today
21 executives can handle a lot more numbers of employees
22 than they could in a former time because of our
23 education that we have been privileged to enjoy in
24 this nation. I question that size because a school
25 board members are paid, addressing Mr. Sundberg's
30
1 question a little bit in that how we can, in today's
2 environment, can -- what is going to be the cost of
3 these additional -- to these additional districts,
4 from just management of the school board.
5 I get very concerned about that, even though I'm
6 very in sympathy with change, but where did the 15,000
7 component come from? I think in major counties that
8 is too small of a component, personally, in today's
9 environment. So, that's where I have a concern. I
10 need some comfort in those arenas, sir.
11 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Well two or three things,
12 Commissioner. Thank you. It's a pretty
13 well-established fact in school administration that
14 when school districts increase in size they become
15 less efficient. They need more support personnel at
16 various levels as we demonstrated a moment ago in
17 Orange County, when you have large complex school
18 systems. In other words, the per-pupil cost of
19 administration is higher in large districts' per-pupil
20 cost, that's demonstrated by the research, than it is
21 in larger districts.
22 So when you look at the administration of a large
23 district that's divided into subdistricts, I don't
24 mean subzones, one school district. Dade County, for
25 example, has multiple subdistricts, each headed by an
31
1 associate superintendent. As the Orlando Sentinel
2 pointed out, when you get from the superintendent down
3 to the principal, you go through a lot of layers.
4 That system is less efficient, then by any way you
5 measure it, than small districts that have more direct
6 lines of responsibility and accountability and
7 therefore less cost.
8 Where the 15,000 figure came from, commissioner,
9 I don't know. I think from the research of Professor
10 Kenny, I think he showed to Senator Klein and
11 Representative Warner that that's a good place to draw
12 the minimum size for the -- applying for the minimum
13 size in terms of efficiency.
14 Mr. Chairman, while I'm on my feet, let me
15 respond, if I may, a little bit to the question
16 Commissioner West asked a few minutes ago. At least I
17 think it's to the point. There is a certain tenancy
18 of all -- on the part of all of us, me included, to
19 resist anything that we don't understand fully in
20 terms of how it's going to work, its operation. We
21 don't like to think that we support the status quo
22 always but we do a good bit of that always.
23 History shows that most great changes in public
24 policy don't happen in quantum leaps but by small
25 incremental steps. That's almost always the case.
32
1 The present broad-scale movement in the reform of
2 education however may be an exception to this rule,
3 for the changes now overtaking the country are not
4 incremental steps in the way we teach our children.
5 There is change in the delivery of education services,
6 the building wall of educational reform.
7 Let me illustrate. The City of Pembroke in
8 Broward County presents one of the most interesting
9 innovations I have seen. The people of Pembroke Pines
10 have expressed their displeasure for some time over
11 what they have regarded as neglect for the Broward
12 County School Board and they found a creative way to
13 solve their problem. The City will build and operate
14 a school for the children of Pembroke Pines to be
15 established as a charter school but with the use of
16 city tax revenues to augment funds, funds from the
17 state which is about $3500 per student per year for
18 charter schools. The mayor of the city commission of
19 Pembroke Pines, along with several other citizens,
20 constitute the school board.
21 The City, through a bond issue, will provide
22 $10 million of capital construction money to be
23 retired by city taxes. The city fathers anticipated a
24 court challenge of the bond issue and they've headed
25 that one off by building not a school, but a community
33
1 facility that will house the school and also serve
2 other community functions.
3 The resistance to most education reform movements
4 like this one naturally comes from those who want to
5 preserve the status quo. In this case, the people in
6 the establishment have something to lose if change
7 occurs. But the news for those of us, for those who
8 would preserve the status quo, is you are too late.
9 The change is now in education, occurring in
10 education, in the past half dozen years in the United
11 States and in Florida, have set in motion profound
12 movements in education policy and practice which for
13 some children and their parents are changing the
14 political landscape.
15 And I could go on, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners.
16 I mentioned Pembroke Pines, that is one of four
17 municipalities in Florida that is now attempting to
18 start their own schools, they will very likely succeed
19 as Pembroke Pines has. And if you look around, you'll
20 see Writer System (phonetic) operating a preschool in
21 their facility in Miami that they are now trying to
22 expand to elementary school through, I think, grade
23 five or six. This is the kind of change that is
24 overtaking the system of ours.
25 The educational establishment, I regret to say,
34
1 is the major impediment to that change for reasons we
2 can all understand. As a matter of fact, if this were
3 a confessional rather than a session of this group, I
4 would say that as a school administrator, as a public
5 education administrator, I've seen all those arguments
6 against changing the status quo and I've used most of
7 them, I've been there. But I now have an independent
8 view and I think the opportunity to express it as a
9 member of this commission that says it's time to
10 reexamine some very basic things in education
11 including the structure of our 67 county school
12 districts. Thank you very much.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
14 Butterworth?
15 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Question for
16 Commissioner Marshall. Commissioner Marshall, I
17 really applaud you on this proposal. And the way it
18 sits right now, I think, it is really very good. I'm
19 concerned also like Commissioner Morsani on the
20 15,000. Would you be amenable if we can pass this out
21 with a majority vote and we're going to be going to
22 two of the areas in the state that would be the most
23 affected by this, the Broward area, Dade, Broward,
24 Palm Beach, and also the Pinellas, Hillsborough. And
25 if, in fact, during those committee meetings or public
35
1 meetings if, in fact, 15,000 should be raised, would
2 you be willing to do that?
3 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Yes, I would, sir.
4 COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH: Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anything further?
6 Commissioner Riley.
7 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
8 speak in favor if that's the appropriate time to do
9 that.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right.
11 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Which might surprise
12 Commissioner Marshall. I have bounced back and forth
13 on this issue. I wanted desperately to support it but
14 it made me very uncomfortable. And the change in the
15 amendment from the 45,000 to the 75,000, I think, made
16 it better and I was still uncomfortable. And I am
17 very pleased with the amendment that Commissioner
18 Mills did providing some balance on the commission
19 that would divide this county. That makes me a lot
20 more comfortable.
21 I think also, Commissioner Marshall, that
22 changing the 15,000 to a higher number would also
23 strengthen it. I respect Commissioner Marshall's
24 experience in education. He certainly has more than
25 anyone else in this room, I think. And he is right,
36
1 something needs to be done. I respect his opinion
2 when he says, Let's look at some other options, let's
3 look at other ways to do it. And I'm certainly
4 willing to do this. The uncomfortableness on the
5 indebtedness, I can tell you this, Commissioner
6 Sundberg, as a borrower, it does not go away. And I'm
7 surprised that with 23 lawyers on this commission
8 somebody doesn't stand up as a lawyer and say, This is
9 exactly how you do it.
10 But the debt to that county is going to remain a
11 debt to that existing school board. And the logistics
12 of it, I'm sure can be worked out. I don't have any
13 doubts, I don't know what the specifics are, but the
14 debt is not going to go away. The bondholders are
15 still going to get paid and the county, if it's
16 decided by the local voters, could still be divided.
17 So I support this amendment and I encourage you to do
18 the same.
19 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Will she yield for a
20 question?
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Riley, I was
23 really more concerned about, but let's assume that
24 it's, hypothetically that it's divided, that a
25 particular county is divided into three fairly equal
37
1 subdistricts or now new districts. And how do you
2 accommodate the fact that in one of those districts,
3 let's just say geographically is in the northern part
4 of the county, and that all the growth for some reason
5 or another that goes -- that comes after this is
6 accomplished tends to move into that area so that it
7 is greatly in need of additional, you know, buildings,
8 facilities, busses, what have you, resources?
9 What is going to be the ability of the county,
10 once you say it's done on a FTE or per capita basis,
11 how do you accommodate where the needs are greater in
12 those areas? I mean, would you have that flexibility
13 to bond --
14 COMMISSIONER RILEY: So you're not talking
15 existing bond or existing indebtedness at the time of
16 splitting it out?
17 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I'm talking about both to
18 be frank with you. I still don't know how you
19 accommodate -- I'm not saying there's any legal
20 impediment to its being a continuing obligation.
21 You're right, they can make all the deals they want to
22 but the obligation is going to remain. But how you
23 allocate it amongst those new districts and how you
24 accommodate growth in the future without --
25 COMMISSIONER RILEY: But I don't see how it being
38
1 a smaller district is going to make the question any
2 different than it is if you have a county that is in
3 itself growing and how do they prepare for the growth
4 within that county. I mean the question is the same
5 the population is just smaller.
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Well, the point is
7 though, that if you're talking about the entire county
8 of Broward, their bonding capacity is much greater
9 than some subunit of the county of Broward. I mean,
10 Broward County now, if the growth is in the northwest,
11 I guess there is no east because you're in the ocean,
12 there is east -- but in any event, if the growth
13 occurs there, you have the bonding capacity of that
14 entire county to address that growth in a particular
15 geographic area. If it is, you know, if the bonding
16 capacity and the debt capacity is -- follows the
17 lines, which it would have to as I see it, the ability
18 to accommodate that would be less.
19 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Was that a question,
20 Commissioner Sundberg?
21 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I'm not sure.
22 COMMISSIONER RILEY: The answer is no.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. You got the
24 answer there, Commissioner Sundberg. Okay. Anybody
25 know what the question was, let us know. All right.
39
1 Do we have any further debate, Commissioner Marshall?
2 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, not further
3 debate, but I think I heard the question and I think
4 the answer to it, Commissioner Sundberg, lies in --
5 well, it was finally -- the amendment of the Attorney
6 General, Commissioner Butterworth, Funding for
7 operation in capital outlay in school districts
8 divided pursuant to this section shall be determined
9 on a countywide basis. Does that not mean,
10 Commissioner Sundberg, that bonds will be retired by
11 revenues derived on a countywide basis and therefore
12 every district, will it not, have the same ability to
13 retire bonds and meet indebtedness as every other
14 district?
15 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I'm not just sure how you
16 do that, but assuming your legal ability to do it,
17 isn't there a political reality? I really don't know.
18 It seems to me it is complex and it seems to me your
19 ability to -- your flexibility for bond financing is
20 diminished once you start breaking these into smaller
21 units.
22 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Well, once again,
23 Commissioner Sundberg, my reaction is that, those are
24 the facts that will be exposed by the work of the
25 commission appointed by the Legislature. And if it's
40
1 not a workable plan, if it has serious holes in it,
2 the voters will not approve it.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There is nothing
4 further, are we ready to vote? There are some people
5 aren't in the chamber that might want to vote. All
6 right. We'll open the machine and we'll vote.
7 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Record the vote.
9 READING CLERK: Twenty-two yeas, and 10 nays,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. By your vote you
12 have passed the proposal and we'll proceed to the next
13 order of business which is Proposal No. 2 by
14 Commissioner Sundberg. And would you read it, please?
15 READING CLERK: Proposal 2, a proposal to revise
16 Article I, Section 2, Florida Constitution; providing
17 for citizens to enjoy equal opportunity to employment,
18 housing, public accommodations, public education, and
19 other benefits and authorizing governmental agencies
20 to take actions to remedy the effects of past
21 discrimination in certain areas.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Sundberg, didn't
23 we have extensive discussion on this previously?
24 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Yes, we have, Mr.
25 Chairman, and we were in an amendatory process. An
41
1 amendment -- and I'm not sure what the status of those
2 amendments is.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Right now there are no
4 amendments on the table. One has been adopted. The
5 No. 1 was adopted and now there are more on the desk.
6 Two more on the desk.
7 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Probably what's on the
8 desk is one by Commissioner Connor.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Should we proceed -- I guess,
10 the proper way to proceed would be to recognize you to
11 explain the proposal again just briefly and then move
12 to the amendments and go to the first one on the desk
13 and then to the second one on desk. Would that be
14 agreeable to you, Commissioner Sundberg?
15 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Frankly, Mr. Chairman,
16 I'll be glad to proceed in whatever fashion. I think
17 it will shorten the process. If I'm not mistaken, I
18 think Commissioner Connor is going to withdraw his
19 amendment which is one of the two on the desk which
20 will mean we can recur to the amendment by
21 Commissioner Smith which now represents really the
22 language that we want to be addressing with some minor
23 exception that we'll deal with in debate.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
25 Connor, you're recognized.
42
1 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir, I do,
2 Mr Chairman, withdraw the amendment that is on the
3 desk. I do have a proposal to make a slight amendment
4 which I understand is viewed as a friendly amendment
5 and acceptable to the Smith Amendment.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. At the moment
7 then, without objection, Commissioner Connor's
8 amendment which is No. 1, is that correct -- No. 2, is
9 withdrawn and we'll now proceed with Amendment No. 1.
10 This will be No. 2. All right. This is Commissioner
11 Smith's amendment which is offered by Commissioner
12 Sundberg as Amendment No. 2. Would you read it,
13 please?
14 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Smith on Page 1,
15 Line 25 through Page 2, Line 4, delete those lines and
16 insert, Because of race, religion, or physical
17 handicap.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Sundberg on the
19 amendment.
20 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Mr. Chairman, what the
21 amendment proposes to accomplish is to strike the
22 sentence in its entirety that currently reads, All
23 citizens shall enjoy equal opportunity to employment,
24 housing, public accommodations, public education, or
25 the benefits of citizenship.
43
1 It then goes on, the language following that
2 sentence, is revised in this amendment because the
3 language following that sentence that's stricken deals
4 with the ability of state agencies and institutions
5 and local agencies and institutions, their ability to
6 take actions to remedy the past or the present affects
7 of past discrimination on any group of people.
8 I think we have narrowed it down. It is clear
9 that we're only talking about currently protected
10 classes. This does not intend to expand any protected
11 classes. It has been amended to address, I think, a
12 concern that Commissioner Langley had and others, and
13 I think perhaps Commissioner Barkdull, having to do
14 with financial reparations and you will see at Line 19
15 it specifically excludes financial reparations as
16 actions which these agencies may take to remedy the
17 present effects of past discrimination.
18 The term "public" has been inserted in each of
19 the actions or functions to make it clear that this
20 only addresses the actions of public entities and
21 agencies. For example, it talks about -- it has added
22 the word "public" before procurement of goods and
23 services. And Mr. Connor -- or Commissioner Connor,
24 and I think also on behalf of Commissioner Langley
25 would like to have added at Line 21 of this amendment
44
1 where it reads -- yes.
2 It has now been offered by Commissioner Connor
3 and it is acceptable to me and through me acceptable
4 to Mr. Smith -- Commissioner Smith.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is an amendment to the
6 amendment; is that correct, Commissioner Connor?
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Let's get the
9 amendment to the amendment. It's on the table and
10 moved by Commissioner Connor. So we'll go to the
11 amendment to the amendment. Read it. You don't have
12 it? Okay. Go ahead and tell us what it does while
13 we're waiting on it.
14 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, it just
15 changes the term "public housing" to "publicly-owned
16 housing."
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So Line 21?
18 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir, on Line 21.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And so instead of reading in
20 the areas of public housing, it should read in the
21 areas of --
22 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Publicly-owned housing.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Publicly-owned housing.
24 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now the amendment to the
45
1 amendment is on the table. I'd have it read, please.
2 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Connor on Page 1,
3 Line 21, delete the words "public housing" and insert
4 "publicly-owned housing".
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. As I understand
6 it, Commissioner Sundberg, you agree to the amendment?
7 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I do.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
9 the amendment to the amendment, say aye. Opposed.
10 (Verbal vote taken.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now we're on the
12 amendment as amended.
13 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Ladies and gentlemen,
14 Commissioners all, we've debate this at some great
15 length. Commissioner Smith has outlined all the very
16 good reasons why his amendment should be adopted. I
17 suggest to you that for all of the reasons which have
18 heretofore been expressed in debate, this is the
19 right, correct, and meat thing to do. I urge all of
20 you to, please, favorably vote for this and that's my
21 close.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now anybody else
23 need to -- want to discuss this? Commissioner
24 Morsani?
25 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: Well, I hope we all
46
1 remember the debate two weeks ago or discussion,
2 whatever we are having at these commission meetings.
3 I objected then and I must say, as I said, our hearts
4 are all in the right place in this commission. But I
5 think we've already discussed in past where we say
6 race, religion, and physical handicap. I think we put
7 that and we're going to propose that in Article I,
8 Section 1, for the public.
9 We can't fix past discrimination. All we can
10 hope is we have an intellectual community that -- an
11 intelligent community, that we are no longer going to
12 have that. I urge -- I don't think this -- we've gone
13 far enough. We just can't keep rehashing these
14 issues. I don't think we need this at this time in
15 our Constitution and I think that we have addressed
16 the principal elements and with great deal of respect
17 for the former Supreme Court Justice.
18 I think that we just addressed this. I said
19 race, religion, or physical handicap. We've taken
20 this out of our minds. I just urge you to remember my
21 dissertation of two weeks ago. We don't need this
22 today and I urge you to vote against this proposal.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Lowndes?
24 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Yes, I'd like to rise in
25 opposition to this. I think that affirmative action
47
1 is a good thing and is something most of us are in
2 favor of. My concern is this proposal doesn't do
3 anything to change the law. The affirmative action
4 programs exist today in most of the cities and most of
5 the counties and they are working and they are helping
6 the people that they are designed to help.
7 If you put this on the ballot and take it to the
8 people, on the one hand, it doesn't change the
9 existing law if they vote in favor of it. If they
10 vote against it, I think it threatens what's happening
11 today in the affirmative action area.
12 I think these programs which exist today and
13 which are working today and which are bringing the
14 minorities into the economic mainstream of the
15 country, which in my view is really the only real
16 solution to the so-called racial problem, I think it
17 threatens those programs. I think it would be much
18 more difficult to carry out if the people of the state
19 voted against them.
20 I think this is the kind of thing also that kind
21 of pits people against people and there's nothing
22 wrong with doing that if there is some real end to
23 being served. But my sense is is what has been
24 characterized in here as an aspirational proposition
25 that doesn't do anything except kind of say, Gee,
48
1 whiz, the folks up here think that what's going on is
2 a good thing and should go on. I just don't think
3 it's going to help and I would urge you all to vote
4 against it.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley?
6 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Mr. Chairman, if I may. I
7 think we really need to step back and take a look at
8 what we're doing. I'm going to quote someone who
9 wasn't one of my favorites in history but probably was
10 a favorite to many of you and that's Franklin Delano
11 Roosevelt. And if I ever get caught quoting him, I'm
12 in trouble. But let me tell you what he said once in
13 the midst of some similar problems:
14 "We are a nation of many nationalities, many
15 races, many religions. We are bound by a single
16 unity, that unity of freedom and equality. Whoever
17 seeks to set one nationality against another seeks to
18 degrade all nationalities. Whoever seeks to set one
19 race against another seeks to enslave all races.
20 Whoever seeks to set one religion against another
21 seeks to destroy all religion."
22 This proposal absolutely sets one race against
23 another or one gender against another. If you want to
24 truly help people get into the mainstream of the
25 American economy, you know the real class out there
49
1 that's discriminated against, the poor. They don't
2 have a color and they don't have a sex. They are the
3 financially poor.
4 They can't qualify for bonds to deal with Leon
5 County or the state of Florida. They don't have the
6 educational background to compete for other jobs. If
7 you want to help somebody, do it on the financial
8 basis that ignores these racial and gender and
9 nationality lines.
10 You know that 80 percent of the small businesses
11 that start in this state fail within a year. And, you
12 know, almost without exception the reason for failure
13 is not lack of talent and not lack of ideas, lack of
14 money because it takes money to make that business
15 run. Who is in more need of help, the million dollar
16 minority-owned company that's already getting a lot of
17 the contracts or the poor white or male-owned company
18 that is fledgling and trying to get started in
19 business?
20 What we've done and what we have in place is make
21 a bunch of fat cats very rich. When we discussed this
22 before, I gave you a couple of examples. A friend of
23 mine, his grandmother was a full-fledged Indian. He
24 has two companies, one's a minority, one's regular.
25 And when he gets -- when somebody else gets the big
50
1 bid, he gets the 2 percent because his grandmother was
2 an Indian. Didn't have to bid, just fill the slot.
3 Another part of this that bothers me is housing.
4 I have asked several lawyers around my seat here, What
5 is public housing? Nobody really seems to know.
6 Certainly we know some big complexes that are public
7 housing. But when my aunt decides to rent out a room,
8 is that then public housing?
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley, that
10 was amended.
11 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: It was publicly owned.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Correct.
13 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I don't know but that one
14 either.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's what we're addressing
16 at the moment.
17 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I understand, sir. But
18 let me tell you about a situation that happened.
19 California has this same or similar language in their
20 Constitution now. There is a lady out there now who
21 lost in the Agency hearing, who lost in the lower
22 courts and has appealed to the California Supreme
23 Court because she was an elderly widow. She didn't
24 have much money, she had a big old house and she
25 wanted some work done so she ran an ad in the paper,
51
1 Wanted: Single, white Christian male, ablebodied to
2 help with carpentry work in exchange for a room.
3 She so far has been assessed over $11,000 in
4 fines and possibly faces the loss of her house for a
5 judgment for those fines. That's not America. Good
6 gracious. Look at the language that's in the
7 Constitution right now that precedes the underlying
8 language, No person shall be deprived of any right
9 because of race, religion or physical handicap. Why
10 must you go any further, it's there now. Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you, Commissioner
12 Langley. Commissioner Mathis?
13 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: I sometimes wonder if I
14 should even bother about standing up to some of the
15 proposals that I've proposed but I took a licking and
16 I'm keeping on ticking.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We're delighted to hear from
18 you, proceed.
19 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Why should we have this
20 proposal in the Constitution is because the laws that
21 discriminated against African-Americans were in the
22 Constitution. The floor had black codes. Black codes
23 were passed in the response to the 1862 Emancipation
24 Proclamation and they sought to institutionalize a
25 segregated racial class system within the rubric of
52
1 democracy.
2 We are not calling for broad scale, open the
3 doors and let any black person come in. I mean,
4 that's a misconception, I think. Affirmative action
5 has a lot to do with letting everyone in and being
6 inclusive. Why this proposal? Why now if the people
7 of Florida vote against it? Why this proposal is
8 because we are clear about the wording of the
9 proposal, that this proposal will be discussed and
10 debated freely among the voters of Florida rather than
11 like with Proposition 209 in California, a kind of
12 sleight of hand game being played with wording and
13 language and passage.
14 It would be better to have this proposal on the
15 ballot, it is clear, we can discuss it openly and
16 have, I think, an intellectually honest debate about
17 this issue of affirmative action. Nat Ford
18 (phonetic), who is a city commissioner in Orlando was
19 responding to the issue of affirmative action and he
20 says when he was growing up in Orlando, and reached
21 working age, he perused the want ads for job
22 possibilities. Kind of like what Commissioner Langley
23 was talking about some advertisement here.
24 And ad for jobs with half-decent salaries and
25 working conditions ended with four words, "colored
53
1 need not apply." Was this negative action for blacks?
2 Was this affirmative action for whites or a plain old
3 case of racism pure and simple? He goes on to say
4 later in the article that after 245 years of blacks
5 being held in bondage and another century or so being
6 denied opportunities based solely on race, he doesn't
7 think that 30-odd years of trying to give
8 African-Americans and others, other denied groups,
9 equal access to the workplace or any other place, for
10 participation in our society is enough.
11 I disagree that this language is aspirational. I
12 think this language is clear. Recent Supreme Court
13 decisions have held that in order to have a basis for
14 remedial programs that remedy past discrimination
15 local governments must show past history of
16 discrimination. I think this language gives a
17 constitutional basis upon which to base these programs
18 on.
19 Mr. Langley talks about all the contracts going
20 do minorities. That is not true. Take the Greater
21 Orlando Aviation Authority, still 85 percent of their
22 contracts go to nonwhite, non-women contractors, 85
23 percent. We have had programs instituted that only
24 give 33 percent, 10 percent to non-female minorities
25 and the rest going to white female.
54
1 Having this basis in our Constitution provides, I
2 think, a strong foundation for those remedial programs
3 and I would urge you to pass this amendment.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
5 Barkdull was next, Commissioner Connor.
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Point of inquiry,
7 Mr. Chairman. We're on the amendment as amended as I
8 understand it and not on the original proposal; is
9 that correct?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct.
11 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'm going to vote for the
12 amendment because I think it makes a better bad
13 proposal.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. You remind me
15 we're on the amendment and I've allowed debate to
16 wander. Would all of those in favor of the
17 amendment -- are you on the amendment, Commissioner
18 Connor, or are you going to speak to the proposal?
19 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I'm on the amendment which
20 has been amended as I understand it.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct. You
22 certainly are welcome to speak on that.
23 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: What I'd like to do, if the
24 Chair pleases, is to ask some questions and I'd like
25 to reserve my right to address it if I may.
55
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Certainly, who do you want to
2 address the question to?
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Commissioner Sundberg.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Sundberg yields
5 to you for questions.
6 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Commissioner Sundberg, so
7 the record is abundantly clear, am I correct in
8 understanding that the classes that you deem to be
9 affected by this proposed amendment are those which
10 include race, religion, gender, and physical handicap?
11 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: National origin, yes,
12 that's correct.
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: And that would represent
14 the universe of protected classes that you envision
15 under this proposal.
16 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: It's my understanding
17 those are the classes which have been identified in
18 the decisions of -- the federal decisions.
19 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Right. Is it your
20 understanding or intention that this amendment would
21 be broader in its effect than what you understand to
22 be the current federal decisions which address this
23 particular area?
24 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: No, it is not my intent,
25 sir.
56
1 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: And would this proposal,
2 for instance, as it relates to the physically
3 handicapped, in your estimation require any greater
4 burdens on a public body than those already imposed by
5 the Americans with Disabilities Act, for example?
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: No.
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: When the term is used to
8 remedy the present effects of past discrimination,
9 does that mean, as you understand the current federal
10 decisions, that in order to qualify for an affirmative
11 action program you would have to identify a group that
12 presently was suffering from the past effects of
13 discrimination? In other words, by virtue of some of
14 these practices or laws or other actions by government
15 in the past such that that past discrimination
16 actually has a present adverse effect on one of these
17 protected classes that you make reference to?
18 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Yes, sir, it is my
19 understanding of the current state of the law that in
20 order for, you know, an action program, an affirmative
21 action program, to pass constitutional muster based on
22 the premise that it is remedying the present effects
23 of past discrimination the record must be clear that
24 in fact some present group or some group is presently
25 being disadvantaged because of a clear record of past
57
1 discrimination against that group.
2 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you. Those are all
3 the questions I have at this time, Mr. Chairman.
4 Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Sundberg.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're on the
6 amendment. Is everybody prepared to vote on the
7 amendment then we'll get to the proposal. All those
8 in favor of the amendment say aye. Opposed.
9 (Verbal vote taken.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment carries. Now
11 we're on the proposal as amended and we will entertain
12 debate on the proposal as amended. Commissioner
13 Sundberg, do you have additional opening remarks on
14 the proposal as amended?
15 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: No, but I'm prepared to
16 close if there are any other comments on the other
17 side.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There may be some people that
19 want to speak in opposition to it as amended because
20 it was indicated by at least one member that he was
21 voting for the amendment --
22 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: That's precisely my
23 point, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to bat cleanup if I may.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does anybody want to speak
25 for or against the proposal as amended? All right.
58
1 Commissioner Anthony.
2 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.
3 I stand asking the members of the commission to
4 support and vote yes on this proposal. A civil rights
5 advocate named Fanny Lou Hamer used to say, I'm sick
6 and tired of being sick and tired. And the reason she
7 was saying that was because of present government
8 policy that she was fighting for years and years and
9 accepting public policy that was not inclusive. I too
10 feel sick and tired of being sick and tired of
11 discussing this concept and this issue and also
12 aggravated, I must say, that the lack of understanding
13 and sensitivity and tolerance to what is occurring in
14 our nation.
15 If this wasn't an issue and if this language was
16 not needed, our president of the United States would
17 not right now be promoting America as one approach in
18 communities. We would not need this type of proposal,
19 in fact, if it was not still in our state. People
20 that are not getting selected for jobs and homes
21 because of their skin color, their gender or their
22 religious orientation. That still exists in our
23 state.
24 Many of you would ask the question perhaps,
25 Clarence, how can you say that? You're standing
59
1 amongst us in this collegial body. This is clearly a
2 protected environment where all of us have an
3 opportunity here to share our viewpoints without being
4 judged and I do judge anyone and their comments,
5 that's your principle, those are your values, that's
6 what you believe in, Commissioner Langley. And I
7 respect you for that.
8 But outside this protected environment, I can
9 tell you it still exists where because of who you are
10 you still get treated differently. Because of who you
11 are when you travel, I travel, I still get treated
12 differently. Until I walk into a room -- and I've
13 done this with a city manager of mine for eight
14 years -- he and I used to schedule a meeting, and he'd
15 schedule a meeting as Mayor Anthony.
16 And we would say to each other, I wonder who the
17 person is going to walk to when they walk out of their
18 office and he happens to be Caucasian, and he would
19 say, I bet, I wager you that they will walk to me
20 instead of you and I would say, I bet they will as
21 well. For eight years we used to have a fun game. It
22 was fun for him because he always won the wager. They
23 would always walk out to him to get -- to take in the
24 mayor to meet with whoever that is.
25 The assumptions that we still carry in the state
60
1 of Florida is what we are trying to develop public
2 policy around and to be able to, as affirmative action
3 is defined, if there is a level playing field, the
4 assumption to me, in affirmative action is if you and
5 I, Commissioner Zack, are applying for a job, applying
6 for housing and we're both qualified to get that
7 housing, no, that job, if you do not have diversity
8 within your workforce, affirmative action saying,
9 Being we're both qualified, select a person who may be
10 underrepresented. That happens in every setting. It
11 happens to us based upon political parties,
12 geographical areas, gender, our age. It happens.
13 What we're saying in this statement, in this
14 proposal, is that Florida is inclusive, Florida is
15 looking toward the future, Florida is making an
16 investment in the future for not only us that are
17 sitting in this room but also for our kids so when
18 they look at the state of Florida and they travel
19 around this nation they will say the state of Florida
20 is a state that really feels that people should have
21 an opportunity.
22 Now why is this issue a big issue, and it's
23 becoming more and more, because economics is beginning
24 to play a role in this issue.
25 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: As long as we were giving
61
1 people the right to vote, long as we were saying, you
2 have the right to public housing, that's okay. But
3 when we started saying that minority and women should
4 also have the right to participate in the State of
5 Florida's economic growth, that is when the challenges
6 and the threats of our state really started occurring.
7 It was all right to sit at the dinner table and
8 to go in the same restaurants, but when I was able to,
9 and others were able to start participating as
10 minority business persons, that's when the challenge
11 began.
12 Seven years ago I had my own consulting firm, and
13 through minority business programs I would get
14 business opportunities. And let me tell you what
15 would happen, I would get on a team and they would
16 give me 10 percent of that business, 10 percent when I
17 was qualified to get the entire 100 percent. The
18 assumption when there were problems with that contract
19 and the contract was higher was because we had
20 minority business programs as a part of that local
21 community. I beg to differ.
22 There are problems by major contractors, whatever
23 color they are, whatever gender they are, and we
24 should not judge based upon that. I say to you,
25 Commissioners, if we really want to show America that
62
1 Florida is an inclusive state, one that sets a playing
2 field for everybody to be able to participate in the
3 economic growth of this state, and that's what I'm
4 basically supporting as well, housing, economics, then
5 this is the proposal to do so. And I encourage you to
6 do that.
7 And truly, I'm sick and tired of being sick and
8 tired of this proposal. We need to do the right thing
9 and vote yes on this proposal.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Further debate. Commissioner
11 Langley.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: For a friendly question.
13 It is amazing that you can even refer to the level
14 playing field. The current Constitution levels the
15 playing field. What you are talking about is
16 reparation. What you are talking about, and
17 Commissioner Morsani said, you know, you can't remedy
18 the losses of the past. Well, Commissioner Morsani,
19 you can, but it's going to be at a cost to an innocent
20 person today, a person who didn't participate in the
21 discrimination of the past.
22 But you know there's only that one pie, that one
23 pie, Commissioner Anthony. If you want a larger part,
24 with no bidding, you are going to have to take it from
25 somebody else who is equally qualified or perhaps even
63
1 more qualified, you are going to take from them.
2 There's no endless pot of money from which the
3 government can satisfy the reparations of the past.
4 So, you are going to cost the taxpayers of this
5 state, and you already have. And you can get figures
6 from the Department of Transportation to satisfy these
7 minority set-asides. You are going to cost them and
8 cost them and cost them here. You know, the
9 vernacular, there ain't no free lunch. So, you are
10 going to make the taxpayers continue to buy these
11 lunches or you are going to take away from innocent
12 third parties who didn't have anything to do with
13 this.
14 I never owned a slave. I think I am one to the
15 government, but I've never owned one. So, you know,
16 it's not right, you are not treating those other
17 people who are just as qualified the truly level
18 playing field, you are not treating them equal. Do
19 you have a way that you can do this without hurting
20 someone else?
21 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: Yes, I think, Commissioner
22 Langley, your assumptions are not really based fairly,
23 and I truly feel that. The assumption is that
24 minority businesses are not as qualified and can't
25 provide the same quality and level of service. And
64
1 when we base our discussion on that type of
2 assumption, it's really difficult for me to share with
3 you how we can move forward when we are basing it on
4 not an accurate assumption.
5 The real assumption, the real challenge for us in
6 our state and in our nation is that if two attorneys,
7 Langley I and Langley II come in for an opportunity
8 and Langley I has, or you know, you are in a race and
9 Langley I has been running that same race and gotten
10 100 years of a start over Langley II, clearly it may
11 not be your fault that you were given that privilege
12 to run 100 years prior to Langley II, but in fact that
13 gives you an upper hand on opportunities in every
14 setting.
15 I will tell you that there are government
16 contractors throughout this state that are five to six
17 to seven months behind on government projects that
18 have not one percentage of minority participation. I
19 will tell you, in Orange County, the courthouse, they
20 were months late, and it was not the cause of minority
21 contractors. So the assumption is for us,
22 Commissioners, that wherever there are minority --
23 wherever there are government contracts and private
24 contracts, if minority contractors are there, does not
25 mean that it's going to be higher, and it does not
65
1 mean that it's going to be on time or late. But let's
2 try to have this discussion based upon the assumption
3 that this will provide an opportunity for all in the
4 State of Florida. And I thank you for that question,
5 again, Commissioner Langley, it was friendly.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Marshall.
7 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 I rise with some reluctance to, I think, oppose this
9 measure. At the moment I'm not sure how I'm going to
10 vote, but I'll tell you how I'm leaning and I would
11 like to tell you why. Commissioner Anthony, who said
12 a moment ago, he appealed to us to vote, to do the
13 right thing and vote for this measure. It may be the
14 right thing, but I think it is the wrong reason.
15 I think it's a potentially devisive issue. It is
16 a question that doesn't need to be asked. I think
17 Florida -- I think this is the wrong time and Florida
18 is the wrong place to ask this question. In the
19 debate on this last, two weeks ago, Commissioner
20 Sundberg, if I remember correctly, was asked, wouldn't
21 this run the risk of calling unfavorable attention to
22 other amendments that we are going to take to the
23 people, maybe even to the whole package. And
24 Commissioner Sundberg, if I heard him correctly, said
25 I'm willing to take that risk.
66
1 I'm not willing to take that risk. In a personal
2 sense, any one of us has a right to take whatever risk
3 we want to. But I think we are risking something on
4 behalf of this commission that I happen to believe is
5 wrong. I'm not satisfied with the progress that's
6 being made. I think Commissioner Mathis and
7 Commissioner Anthony have made very compelling
8 statements, moving.
9 And it's not that I'm saying that the people of
10 Florida are prejudiced, that they are, you know, they
11 are bigots. That's not why I'm suggesting that people
12 will be turned against it; it's because it is the
13 wrong question at the wrong time. We are making
14 progress. Not as fast as I would like, not as fast as
15 we ought to be. But I can talk about some very
16 significant progress that was made at Florida under my
17 direction at State University over a period of 15 or
18 20 years, very substantial progress. I want to keep
19 fighting that battle, and I think there are many other
20 people who want to continue fighting that battle and
21 winning victories. Not as many as we would like, not
22 as fast as we would like, but winning some victories.
23 And I think that putting this issue in the
24 Constitution will crystallize our position and serve
25 as a devisive function in our society. And for that
67
1 reason, I think I'm going to vote against it.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
3 Mathis and Connor, and Sundberg, you want to close
4 when it comes time; is that correct, Commissioner
5 Sundberg?
6 All right. Commissioner Mathis, you are next
7 again.
8 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: When I got an offer to sit
9 on this commission, I called by grand-daddy. My
10 grand-daddy lives in New Orleans, Louisiana. He was a
11 chef in New York and moved back home. And I said,
12 Grand-daddy, they are going to have me sit on a
13 commission and we are going to discuss the
14 Constitution of the State of Florida. He was really
15 quiet for a while and he said, Well, Jacinta, you know
16 what I want you to do, I want you to get me my
17 40 acres and a mule. And then he said, No, I don't
18 want no mule, I want a Mercedes. But the issue there
19 was that my grandfather knew that he had been
20 disenfranchised by a number of laws. And I consider
21 my grandfather rather successful. He owns his own
22 home, he had his own business, but I also know that he
23 was denied opportunities to succeed that were freely
24 given and open to others.
25 When I was in law school, I worked with the Clerk
68
1 of the House of Representatives because I had to work
2 in order to help me get through law school. And I was
3 walking up from FSU Law School to the Capitol, and a
4 fellow student, we'll just call him Carlton, was
5 walking by me. And Carlton said, Jacinta, you know,
6 we have really come far. He said, Not too long ago,
7 my father, my great-grandfather owned slaves. And he
8 said, Now here we are, both walking up to the Capitol,
9 we are both interns, we are both in law school. We
10 have reached some sort of plateau. And I looked at
11 Carlton and I said, If my father had been able to own
12 property like your father had, if my father had been
13 able to go into motels and hotels, own businesses, get
14 loans from banks, I would be in the damn Governor's
15 Mansion by now instead of walking up to the capitol
16 with you.
17 There is that issue that, Where would I be had
18 there been opportunities? I don't know. We don't
19 know. But we can, as a state, take steps to remedy
20 the denial of opportunities to a number of different
21 groups.
22 And I disagree that that means that we are going
23 to have to take from another to give to one, because I
24 think and I believe there's a principle of alchemy
25 working here, that the broader our participation, the
69
1 bigger the economic pie and the more there is for
2 everyone. We are a better state when we are
3 inclusive. And I think this makes a statement about
4 our desire to be inclusive. And I would urge you to
5 support this amendment.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor.
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, President
8 Woodrow Wilson once made this statement. He said, A
9 nation that does not remember what it was yesterday
10 does not know what it is today nor what it is trying
11 to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do
12 not know where we came from or what we have been
13 about.
14 As we reflect upon American history, I think we
15 have many, many things to be proud of. The founding
16 fathers of our country were, without a doubt, some of
17 the most far-sided people that ever came upon the
18 scene of history. And because of their vision and
19 because of their concern for freedom and democracy, we
20 have enjoyed the greatest measure of freedom of any
21 people on the face of the earth.
22 But if you look at the whole of American history,
23 you know that there are some dark spots that have
24 appeared in our past, not the least of which has been
25 profound and significant discrimination against racial
70
1 minorities. From the owning of slaves to the
2 segregation of the races, in the areas of education,
3 and in just about every other kind of arena that you
4 can think of, and certainly even within my memory,
5 during the time that I have grown up. Now, I can
6 certainly understand and appreciate Senator Langley's
7 concern that affirmative action programs may in some
8 way inure to the detriment and create new victims
9 among those who did not engage in past discrimination.
10 But I think all of you will acknowledge as we
11 stand here today, that there are many of us here today
12 who are the beneficiaries, as we stand here today, of
13 past discrimination. We didn't engage in that,
14 necessarily, ourselves. We weren't -- we didn't have
15 the same copability of others who may have gone before
16 us, but without a shadow of a doubt, because of what
17 has happened in the past, and because of much of the
18 economic prosperity in this country was built upon the
19 backs of people who were being oppressed, many of
20 those simply by an accident of birth are beneficiaries
21 of past discrimination that has gone on.
22 I have really struggled and wrestled, as
23 Commissioner Marshall has, with this issue. And
24 basically what it comes down to for me is this. I
25 don't want, under any circumstances, Commissioner
71
1 Sundberg, to perpetuate in an adverse manner the
2 present effects of past discrimination. I want to be
3 judged on the basis of my conduct, of my acts or
4 omissions, not on the basis of someone else's.
5 And while I may not be able to remedy the
6 injustices of the past, Lord willing, Lord willing, I
7 will have the boldness and the courage to try to
8 remedy in the present the injustices that have
9 resulted as a consequence of past discrimination.
10 And this has not been an easy issue for me to
11 come to grips with, and I would appreciate,
12 Commissioner Sundberg and Commissioner Smith, working
13 with me in an effort to draw this language in such a
14 way so that it didn't suffer from overbreath. And as
15 I understand it, the goal, the purpose as stated here,
16 very simply is to enable these, basically, public
17 bodies in the public arena to remedy the present
18 effects, the present adverse effects of past
19 discrimination. In other words, to overcome the
20 adverse affects that people now suffer in the present
21 because of what has gone on in the past.
22 I share Commissioner Lowndes' concern that this
23 may very well have an adverse affect in the future,
24 and I'm interested and eager in hearing from the
25 public as we go in our public meetings about the
72
1 effect of that in the future, but I'll tell you, I was
2 mortified and chagrined and had been fearful and was
3 concerned when we had a presenter in Orlando who,
4 under the Florida Civil Rights Initiative, I believe
5 it was called, was proposing to advance a proposal
6 that would put us in the very same imbroglio that the
7 people in California got into, which I think was very
8 productive of a lot of racial disharmony.
9 And so, in terms of how the issue was framed, as
10 I perceive it, this may be one of the most positive
11 ways in which the issue can be framed. And so I
12 intend at this juncture to support this proposal.
13 Martin Luther King made a statement that I think we
14 might all ponder as we reflect the direction in which
15 we are going to go as we address this issue.
16 He made this observation, he said, cowardess asks
17 the question, is it safe; expediency asks the
18 question, is it politic; vanity asks the question, is
19 it popular; but conscience asks the question, is it
20 right. And there comes a time when one must take a
21 position that is neither safe nor politic nor popular,
22 but he must take it because conscience tells him it is
23 right.
24 Ladies and gentlemen, my conscience tells me that
25 this is the right position to take, and that to the
73
1 extent we preserve the opportunity for government, to
2 engage in affirmative action programs in the future in
3 the Sunshine, I have every confidence that when a
4 public body steps over the line, when a public body
5 goes to excess, when a public body simply pays back
6 for political support, those are the kind of things
7 that the public can address, register concern about
8 and tweak in order to make sure that the programs that
9 we have and the way in which we order ourselves comes
10 back into equilibrium.
11 Unquestionably, unquestionably, the Constitution
12 of the United States and of the State of Florida
13 accords equal protection to all people, most all
14 people. You know the exception that I'm concerned
15 about and that I've not been able to persuade you
16 about. But that's for another day, and I'm going to
17 continue to try to persuade you in that vein for the
18 same reasons that I'm advancing here, and it is
19 because every human being, rich or poor, black or
20 white, old or handicapped, male or female, pre-born or
21 post-born is a creature created in God's image, and
22 because of that, if for no other reason, entitled to
23 be accorded basic human dignity, and to be treated
24 fairly and equitably with their fellow man. I
25 encourage your support of this proposal. Thank you.
74
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Before
2 Commissioner Sundberg closes, any further debate?
3 Commissioner Sundberg, you are recognized to close.
4 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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