State Seal Calendar

Meeting Proceedings for February 26, 1998 (File size=208K





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          1                          STATE OF FLORIDA
                             CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
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                                    COMMISSION MEETING
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          9
              DATE:                   February 26, 1998
         10
              TIME:                   Commenced at  9:00 a.m.
         11                           Concluded at 11:45 a.m.

         12   PLACE:                  The Senate Chamber
                                      The Capitol
         13                           Tallahassee, Florida

         14   REPORTED BY:            KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
                                      JULIE L. DOHERTY, RPR
         15                           MONA L. WHIDDON
                                      Court Reporters
         16                           Division of Administrative Hearings
                                      The DeSoto Building
         17                           1230 Apalachee Parkway
                                      Tallahassee, Florida
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          1                             APPEARANCES

          2   W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN

          3   CARLOS ALFONSO
              CLARENCE E. ANTHONY (EXCUSED)
          4   ANTONIO L. ARGIZ (ABSENT)
              JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
          5   MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
              PAT BARTON
          6   ROBERT M. BROCHIN
              THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
          7   KEN CONNOR
              CHRIS CORR
          8   SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW
              VALERIE EVANS
          9   MARILYN EVANS-JONES
              BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
         10   ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
              PAUL HAWKES (ABSENT)
         11   WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
              THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS
         12   THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
              DICK LANGLEY (ABSENT)
         13   JOHN F. LOWNDES
              STANLEY MARSHALL (EXCUSED)
         14   JACINTA MATHIS (ABSENT)
              JON LESTER MILLS
         15   FRANK MORSANI
              ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
         16   CARLOS PLANAS (ABSENT)
              JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
         17   KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
              SENATOR JIM SCOTT (EXCUSED)
         18   H. T. SMITH
              ALAN C. SUNDBERG
         19   JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON
              PAUL WEST (EXCUSED)
         20   JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON (ABSENT)
              STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
         21
              IRA H. LEESFIELD (ABSENT)
         22   LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN (ABSENT)

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         24

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          1                             PROCEEDINGS

          2             (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)

          3             SECRETARY BLANTON:  All unauthorized visitors, please

          4        leave the chamber.  All commissioners indicate your

          5        presence.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  If everybody could

          7        take their seats, please.

          8             SECRETARY BLANTON:  Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  I am informed that

         10        Commissioner Jennings is receiving an award and will be

         11        here as soon as she's awarded.  I don't know.  All right.

         12        Would all commissioners and guests please rise for the

         13        opening prayer given this morning by Reverend Gilbert

         14        Crosby of St. Francis of Assisi Episcopal Church in

         15        Tallahassee.  Reverend Crosby.

         16             REVEREND CROSBY:  Let us pray.  Most gracious God,

         17        Creator of all things, you formed the human race and

         18        blessed us with memory, reason and skill, setting us as

         19        stewards over all of creation, and enjoining us to love,

         20        care for, and protect one another.  Guide those who have

         21        been raised to positions of leadership as members of this

         22        Constitutional Revision Commission as they consider the

         23        issues before them this day.  Grant them grace and wisdom

         24        in the exercise of their duties, fill them with the love

         25        of truth and of righteousness, keep them ever mindful of


  



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          1        their calling to be servants of the people.

          2             Finally, we pray, teach our people to rely on your

          3        strength and to accept and exercise their responsibilities

          4        as citizens, that together we may serve you and honor your

          5        name, for yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are

          6        exalted as head over all.  Amen.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Thank you.  This morning we have

          8        with us students from the Crestview Independent School,

          9        Danny Hamilton and James Hamilton, whose mother Linda sits

         10        here in front of you every day, we are delighted to have

         11        them, along with Virginia Tuyn, the sponsor, Carrie Ann

         12        Ness, Shannon O'Donnell, Whitney Kaufman and Brittney

         13        Jarvis.  If you young people would come forward and lead

         14        us in the pledge of allegiance to the flag.

         15             (Pledge of Allegiance.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Thank you.  And we are delighted

         17        to have you with us.  We'll come to order and get under

         18        way.

         19             Commissioner Barkdull.  All right.  As I understand

         20        it, Commissioner Barkdull, you are -- the Committee on

         21        Rules report is being distributed.

         22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So if you want to proceed, you

         24        can.  You have the floor.

         25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman, Members of the


  



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          1        Commission, the Committee on Rules and Administration met

          2        yesterday evening upon adjournment and has come up with

          3        the following recommendations for the public hearings that

          4        will be held in Fort Lauderdale and St. Petersburg and the

          5        TV forum that will be here in Tallahassee.

          6             For the public hearings in Fort Lauderdale and St.

          7        Petersburg, all proposals should be available at both

          8        meetings for discussions by the public at that time.

          9        Those are all of the proposals that have received at least

         10        a majority vote in this body under the procedure that we

         11        adopted Tuesday.  The speakers will be called in the order

         12        in which they have signed up.  They will be taken on a

         13        first come, first served basis.

         14             Neither topics nor speakers will be grouped, although

         15        I'm sure that the Chair will ask when there are a large

         16        number of people from the same groups to have a spokesman.

         17        There will be a time limit of three minutes.

         18             We are modifying a little bit, because of some public

         19        reaction we had at the other public hearings.  In addition

         20        to the card that they will sign to note their name and

         21        address and what topics they wish to speak on, there will

         22        be a place where they will have an opportunity to vote

         23        whether they are for or against the major proposals or the

         24        proposals that are up before the public.

         25             There will also be an indication that they can turn


  



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          1        the card over and write what sentiments they would like to

          2        express on the back of the card, with the assurance the

          3        that their remarks will be brought to the attention of the

          4        commissioners.  Because that way it lets everybody be able

          5        to express their views, even if they may not be able to be

          6        reached.  Because we are recommending that the time be

          7        9:00 to 5:00 at both open forums in Fort Lauderdale and

          8        St. Petersburg.

          9             The Tallahassee hearing has a limited space.  This is

         10        a one hour TV statewide call-in program.  And the

         11        committee recommends that the participants -- and I

         12        believe that eight is the maximum that they can have --

         13        be, of course, the Chairman, Commissioner Mills as

         14        Chairman of Style and Drafting, that the next priority of

         15        those that will be available for the other six positions

         16        would be committee chairmen.  If committee chairmen are

         17        unable to attend, then it would be extended to committee

         18        vice chairmen.  And we believe by then we would have

         19        filled up the six seats.

         20             I call your attention that these recommendations of

         21        the committee are on your desk in written form.  Also on

         22        your desk is another chart that shows the public hearings.

         23        And you will note that it's not in chronological order.

         24        It opens with March 9th, which is a hearing up here and

         25        then shows the hotels for the 6th and the 12th hearings.


  



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          1             I alert those that may be here to appear on the TV

          2        thing on the 9th, if you cannot fly in that day and fly

          3        out and you need to make reservations, the available

          4        hotels or motels are listed under that March 9th column,

          5        because the Legislature will be in session and it will be

          6        difficult to get in -- I don't think that the Doubletree

          7        is going to be available.  It may be, but I doubt it.

          8             I would move that the Rules and Administration report

          9        as to the procedure to be followed at the public hearings

         10        be adopted, Mr. Chairman.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There is a motion

         12        that we adopt the report of the Rules Committee relating

         13        to public hearings.  Any discussion?  If not, all in favor

         14        say aye; opposed?

         15             (Verbal vote taken.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is adopted.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Then turning to the calendar

         18        for today, there's one change that needs to be made on it.

         19        Late yesterday afternoon we waived the rules and took up

         20        Proposition 59 or Proposal 59 in order to insert the

         21        Lowndes amendment which related to an arbitration

         22        proceeding being available for claims against the state or

         23        the political subdivision in excess of $500,000.  Under

         24        the normal processes, that is now in the Style and

         25        Drafting Committee.


  



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          1             With the concurrence of the Chairman of Style and

          2        Drafting, I would like to move that that be withdrawn from

          3        Style and Drafting and placed on this calendar today in

          4        order that it can get in the same posture for the public

          5        hearings as the other matters that we have considered the

          6        last three days.  And at this time I move that it be

          7        removed from Style and Drafting and placed on the

          8        calendar, at the end of the calendar for today.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Zack.

         10             COMMISSIONER ZACK:  When there was a waiver

         11        yesterday, wasn't that a waiver of all of those issues,

         12        Mr. Chairman?

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I assume that it was, but his

         14        motion is to withdraw it from Style and Drafting and place

         15        it on the calendar.

         16             COMMISSIONER ZACK:  Does that require a new vote on

         17        the matter?

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It requires a vote on the motion,

         19        at this point.  If you grant the motion, I guess it would

         20        be back for reconsideration.

         21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It's never been on the

         22        calendar on the program that we have been following on

         23        those items that have been recommended out of Style and

         24        Drafting, in which if they don't get a majority vote, they

         25        are dead.  If they get a majority vote, they go to public


  



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          1        hearings, come back with five hands and there can be a

          2        re-vote.  That's what we are trying to do is get it in

          3        that posture.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  It's my

          5        understanding, if you vote for this, it'll be back on the

          6        calendar and it'll be subject to a motion to reconsider.

          7             (Off-the-record comment.)

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:   It doesn't have to be

          9        reconsidered, okay.  It'll be back on the calendar.

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It'll be on the calendar.  We

         11        are trying to get it in the same posture as the other

         12        eight items that are on the calendar today.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  And any item that is

         14        moved for reconsideration today from yesterday.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand the

         17        motion?  If you vote for this motion, Proposal 59 will

         18        come back to the calendar and be available for a vote and

         19        debate today.  Is that correct?

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull, that's

         22        your motion?

         23             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Everybody in favor of the motion,

         25        say aye; opposed?


  



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          1             (Verbal vote taken.)

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, it was one to one.

          3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  No, I heard two.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  I'm going to rule that the

          5        motion passed and it will be placed on the calendar.

          6             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  With that, Mr. Chairman, that

          7        concludes the report of the Rules Committee, and we would

          8        now be prepared to go into the special order.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull, would you

         10        take the chair for a moment so I can make a motion?

         11             (Commissioner Barkdull assumes the Chair).

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  For what purpose does

         13        Commissioner Douglass rise?

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I rise to make a motion to

         15        reconsider Proposal No. 58, which we voted on yesterday.

         16        And I would like to explain why I'm making that motion.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  You are recognized.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Earlier in the week, the people

         19        who supported this that you will recall were the ones who

         20        had lost their parents and could not bring suits, and this

         21        was the age discrimination matter.  It passed originally

         22        when it had come before the body with a vote of something

         23        like 20 to 7.

         24             I assured them that they didn't need to spend their

         25        money to stay here to lobby the group, because if it had a


  



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          1        20 to 7 vote, it was very, very unlikely that they would

          2        not have a majority vote to be heard at the public

          3        hearings and that they could then appear at the public

          4        hearings and speak to them.

          5             And then the vote was taken and I voted with the

          6        prevailing side, so, realizing that I had somewhat misled

          7        these people.  And I felt very personally obligated to get

          8        this back and attempt to get a majority vote so that what

          9        I told them would happen, would happen.  Now I recognize

         10        that as chairman I may have been presumptive thinking

         11        because it was 20 to 7 that it would get a majority vote.

         12             For your information, I see a whole lot of people

         13        that don't bother you-all because I suggest that they

         14        don't.  Some of them when I suggest they do continue to do

         15        so, but at least I try to deflect you from some of the

         16        things, because I spend full time, practically, here and

         17        available to see whoever has a problem.  So I'm asking for

         18        reconsideration of this.  And if it is reconsidered, a

         19        majority vote so that it can go to public hearing.

         20             I'm not asking you to do anything that would alter

         21        your opportunity to vote on this on final passage.  And I

         22        will, if it should get on, assure you that I will join

         23        with four others in moving reconsideration after the

         24        public hearings in order to comply with the rules.  So I

         25        am a little bit afraid to say please do this because I


  



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          1        need to get out of the ditch, but that's about what it is.

          2             And as I told Commissioner Evans-Jones, I woke up

          3        this morning, about 4:30, which is about an hour earlier

          4        than I usually wake up, and I've been awake ever since

          5        worrying about this.  And I was temporarily relieved of

          6        that worry when three young men in a car before daylight

          7        showed up driving down one of my back roads coming in my

          8        farm, and me on my four wheeler.  And we had a discussion,

          9        which I was very polite, but I did convince them that they

         10        had taken the wrong road and they left.  So I had a little

         11        problem to take care of there.

         12             All this is to ask that this be reconsidered and to

         13        tell you why that I ask it be reconsidered.  And I will

         14        ask you when it is to give it a majority vote so that we

         15        can allow these people to appear at the public hearing on

         16        this matter.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anybody else like to be heard

         18        on the motion to reconsider?  Commissioner Zack.

         19             COMMISSIONER ZACK:  On behalf of the motion,

         20        yesterday, late in the day, I believe we were all trying

         21        to limit our remarks, which I did on this matter,

         22        believing that with a 20 to 7 vote there was no need to

         23        really spend an extensive amount of time discussing it.

         24             I also spoke to Commissioner Morsani, for example,

         25        this morning, who I guess because, again, being late in


  



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          1        the day and the type of arguments that were being made,

          2        voted against it, when in fact he was in favor of it.

          3             There are numerous arguments that need to be made,

          4        that should be made, and at the very least these people

          5        need to be given the opportunity to come and express

          6        themselves again, not to get a cold shoulder, and to know

          7        that we heard what they said.  Whether it goes forward or

          8        not in the analysis is another matter.  And I will join

          9        the Chairman as one of the people of the five who would

         10        ask that it be reconsidered at the time of our next

         11        meeting.

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anyone else want to be heard

         13        on the motion to reconsider?  Commissioner Smith.

         14             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  I'm going to vote to reconsider

         15        not because of the merits, but as a courtesy to the chair.

         16        I've asked him several times for courtesies that he didn't

         17        have to grant in the rules, he's extended them to me and

         18        to others that I've asked him to extend them to so I'm

         19        going to do it for that reason.  But I'm voting with you

         20        to reconsider, Mr. Chair.

         21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioner Nabors.

         22             COMMISSIONER NABORS:  I'm going to do the same thing

         23        for the same reasons that Mr. Smith is.

         24             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  We don't need everybody in

         25        the chamber to do this.  Anybody else want to be heard on


  



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          1        the merits of the motion?  Hearing and seeing nobody else,

          2        as many as favor the motion, say aye; opposed nay.

          3             (Verbal vote taken.)

          4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  The ayes have it.  The matter

          5        has been reconsidered.  Now Commissioner Riley.

          6             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  Mr. Chairman, I would like to

          7        also ask for a reconsideration on Proposal No. 6.

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Were you on the prevailing

          9        side?

         10             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  I was.

         11             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  All right.  Well, that's up

         12        for reconsideration.

         13             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  That is the sales tax issue.

         14        Commissioner Nabors may want to speak to the reasons.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  We recognize that's available

         16        to be made.  Chairman Douglass, to follow your

         17        explanation, do you want to make a motion to have that

         18        matter placed on the calendar today?

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I move to place it on the

         20        calendar today.

         21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Any further debate on that

         22        motion?  As many as favor the motion to place No. 59 on

         23        the calendar today, say aye -- 58 instead of 59.  Do you

         24        need anything else on that, Madam Secretary?  All right.

         25             Commissioner Riley, do you have any more motions to


  



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          1        make on 6?

          2             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  I would like to move for

          3        reconsideration.

          4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I got that motion.  That just

          5        leaves it on the calendar.

          6             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  And to place it on the calendar

          7        today.

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Now that is the sales tax

          9        sunset.  Does everybody understand what this will do?

         10        This will place this on the calendar for a vote again

         11        today as to whether or not it goes to the public hearings.

         12        Anybody want to be heard on the motion?  Commissioner

         13        Nabors.

         14             COMMISSIONER NABORS:  I would like to urge the body

         15        to do this.  I know that there are people who are opposed

         16        to this.  There are also people who think this is the most

         17        fundamentally important thing that we can do.  But the

         18        ultimate concept that I would ask you to place in your

         19        mind is that we do not really have a tax reform component

         20        in what we're presenting to the people.  We are going

         21        through public hearing process, we have got another

         22        opportunity where I and others who believe this have to

         23        get 22 votes.

         24             I would urge you that this isn't the appropriate time

         25        to stop going forward on a fundamental proposal such as


  



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          1        this.  I would urge you to reconsider and let's continue

          2        through the public hearings.

          3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anybody else desire to be

          4        heard?  This constitutes a waiver of the rules, and with

          5        the attendance that we have got today, it's going to take

          6        a unanimous vote of this group to put it on today.  Does

          7        anybody else want to be heard on this matter?

          8             All right.  As many as favor the motion to place 58

          9        on the calendar today --

         10             (Off-the-record comment.)

         11             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  6 is the one.

         12             (Off-the-record comment by Commissioner Nabors.)

         13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It puts it on the calendar,

         14        but it wouldn't recur until we come back on the 17th.  If

         15        you want it on for today where it could be considered by

         16        the public hearings, it is a waiver of the rules, which is

         17        two-thirds of the entire body.

         18             (Off-the-record comment.)

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, I don't want them both.

         20        The motion right now is on 6.  I thought the vote by

         21        Commissioner Riley, the motion to reconsider was passed.

         22        This is a motion to place it on the calendar today and

         23        vote on it.

         24             (Off-the-record comment.)

         25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  They voted on it, okay.  The


  



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          1        Secretary tells me that we did not vote on the motion for

          2        reconsideration.  I apologize.  The vote will be taken on

          3        the motion to reconsider Proposition 6, the vote by which

          4        it failed.

          5             Let's get them one at a time.  Anybody else want to

          6        be heard on the motion to reconsider Proposition 6?  If

          7        nobody else wants to be heard, then all of those that

          8        favor the motion to reconsider Proposition 6, say aye.

          9        All of those opposed, nay.

         10             (Verbal vote taken.)

         11             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I think we're going to have

         12        to go on the machine on it.  I'm not as good as

         13        Commissioner Jennings, I don't have as good an ear.

         14        Please unlock the machine and take the vote.

         15             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Lock the machine and announce

         17        the vote.

         18             READING CLERK:  Eighteen yeas, 5 nays, Mr. Chairman.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The nays were a little loud.  Now

         20        it's in the posture where it will recur on the calendar

         21        when we come back on the 17th, unless there is a motion to

         22        place it on today, which will take a waiver of the rules.

         23        (Pause.)  Commissioner Riley.

         24             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  Mr. Chairman, I would like to

         25        move that it be placed on the calendar today, with a


  



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          1        limited debate time wise.

          2             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That is a motion.  Anybody

          3        else want to be heard on the motion?  Commissioner

          4        Sundberg.

          5             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  I rise to speak in favor of

          6        it.  It is clearly the will of a significant majority of

          7        this body to reconsider this matter.  I ask -- but that

          8        reconsideration will be much more meaningful, obviously,

          9        if it can take place today and then you vote your

         10        conscious.  But let's please get the necessary votes to

         11        let this matter be reconsidered, and if it's favorably

         12        reconsidered, to go to public hearing.

         13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anybody else want to be

         14        heard?  Commissioner Brochin.

         15             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  Yes, I would like to also urge

         16        reconsideration.  In the area of revising our

         17        Constitution, as it affects tax and finance, we really

         18        have no proposal of any meaning to go before the people

         19        with.  And even if we disagree with some of the components

         20        of this particular proposal, if we could reconsider it,

         21        vote it favorably out, and then let's at least talk

         22        through it and revise it.  If we can make it work better

         23        in the intervening three to four weeks, it allows us the

         24        time.

         25             The action we took yesterday, because of the posture


  



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          1        that we are in, effectively killed any tax reform package

          2        that I think would be advisable for the Constitution.

          3        This allows us at least procedurally, even if you don't

          4        agree with the components of it today, for us to keep it

          5        going and continue to work on it and hopefully come up

          6        with something that we can all agree on.

          7             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anybody else want to be heard

          8        on the motion?  If not, as many as favor the motion say

          9        aye; those opposed, nay.

         10             (Verbal vote taken.)

         11             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It fails to get the necessary

         12        vote to waive the rules.  Commissioner Brochin.

         13             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  I ask that you take a vote on

         14        that, please.

         15             (Off-the-record comment.)

         16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, it takes two-thirds of

         17        the whole body and there's only 25 people here today, and

         18        that's the vote, 25.  Commissioner Brochin has raised a

         19        point.  Anybody else want a roll call vote?  All right.

         20        Open the machine.

         21             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Everybody voted?  Lock the

         23        machine and announce the vote.

         24             READING CLERK:  Seventeen yeas, 7 nays, Mr. Chairman.

         25             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  The motion fails.


  



                                                                          20

          1        Commissioner Brochin.

          2             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  I would like to understand

          3        then how we got Proposals 58 and 59 to consider today

          4        without going through the same procedure.

          5             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  The voice vote received no

          6        negatives on 58 or 59.  Now if -- Chairman Douglass.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Would it be appropriate while I'm

          8        on the floor to go ahead and move to take up 58?  I'll be

          9        happy to do it at the will of the body.  And you're the

         10        Rules Chairman so I'm asking you.  I'll be glad to come

         11        back and take the chair and bring it up --

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  If it's without objection,

         13        we'll take it up now.  If there's an objection, it's going

         14        to the bottom of the calendar.  Does anybody object to

         15        taking 58 up now?  Commissioner Sundberg.

         16             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, and

         17        perhaps this is inappropriate, but I want to recur to

         18        Proposition 6 and to get a clarification, if I may.

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  State the point.

         20             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  My point is this:  Would a

         21        motion, recognizing that it is extraordinary, but would a

         22        motion to permit -- we have already moved to reconsider,

         23        but can't be reconsidered until the 17th on 6, all right.

         24        Which means that the proposal is still alive.

         25             What sort of vote would it take to permit it to go to


  



                                                                          21

          1        be an issue at the public hearings that we are going to

          2        have, subject, of course, to it getting an appropriate

          3        vote on reconsideration?

          4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It's going to take a waiver

          5        of the rules, Commissioner Sundberg, and you are in the

          6        same boat.

          7             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  I was afraid that was the

          8        answer.  Hope springs eternal though.

          9             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioner Riley.

         10             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  I would request a clarification,

         11        if I may, on Proposition 6, then.  It will be heard on the

         12        17th on reconsideration?

         13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It will be on

         14        reconsideration, and be subject to being called up on that

         15        day.  I don't know whether it will be heard or not.

         16             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  For a vote for reconsideration?

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  That's correct.

         18             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  Thank you.  Which at that point

         19        will take --

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It's in the normal posture at

         21        that time.  And you will be looking to get the 22 votes by

         22        that date.

         23             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  Thank you.

         24             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Does anybody have an

         25        objection to taking up 58 now?  All right, Commissioner


  



                                                                          22

          1        Douglass.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

          3        Commissioners, I think I expressed my reasons for wanting

          4        to get this reconsidered to get a majority vote so it

          5        could be heard at the public hearing.  And I have been

          6        assured by some members that they would vote, even though

          7        they were ultimately going to not vote for this, that they

          8        would vote to see that it got a majority vote today.

          9             I ask you to do that and I do support it on the

         10        merits.  I realize that there are some that don't, but I

         11        really think that this would be a real help in the overall

         12        operation of our commission.  And in the interest of

         13        fairness, I ask that you vote for this to give it a

         14        majority vote so it can be heard at the public hearing.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anybody else want to be heard

         16        on the proposition?  Commissioner Zack.

         17             COMMISSIONER ZACK:  I don't want to take anything for

         18        granted anymore, but I'll be very, very brief.  It's said

         19        that a society is judged by how they treat the very young

         20        and the old.  And by the law we have today, we are saying

         21        to the young, you have no rights when it comes to the

         22        death of your parent when you are over 25.  And to the old

         23        we are saying, you have no value to your children who are

         24        over 25.  That's just wrong.  We should vote to allow this

         25        matter to go forward.


  



                                                                          23

          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioner Connor.

          2             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I likewise affirm that

          3        position, and would suggest to you, as a matter of public

          4        policy, that the posture we are in now is that in the

          5        context of medical care, with respect to an old person,

          6        you are better off to kill that person than you are to

          7        merely injure them.  That is the wrong message to send to

          8        the medical community with respect to the standard of care

          9        in our state.

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anybody else desire to be

         11        heard on the proposition?  Opponent, proponent?  Chairman

         12        Douglass to close.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think I have made my position

         14        clear.  I think that this is a matter that should be heard

         15        at public hearing.  I obviously agree with the comments of

         16        Commissioner Connor, and I've stated them before.  But I

         17        would seek your vote on this matter to let it go to public

         18        hearing to hear from the public on this and those people

         19        that have worked so hard to bring it before us.

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  One thing before we vote, I'm

         21        going to the reading clerk to read it.

         22             READING CLERK:  Proposal No. 58, a proposal to revise

         23        Article I, Section 21, Florida Constitution; providing

         24        that the right to recover in an action for personal injury

         25        or death may not be denied because of age.


  



                                                                          24

          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Anything further from the

          2        body?  Open the machine and record the vote.

          3             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Everybody voted?  Lock the

          5        machine and announce the vote.

          6             READING CLERK:  Nineteen yeas, 4 nays, Mr. Chairman.

          7             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  You are vindicated,

          8        Mr. Chairman.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Before I take the chair, I

         10        realize now that I'm certainly entitled to more courtesies

         11        to each of you, except, perhaps, the four.

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  We will now revert to the

         13        special order calendar.  And we start up with education,

         14        and recognize at this time we're under the same

         15        procedures, same time restrictions.  Commissioner Mills as

         16        the Chairman of Style of Drafting.

         17             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, just procedurally,

         18        I would renew that motion yesterday to limit debate to ten

         19        minutes, five per side, two minutes for closing.

         20             (Chairman Douglass resumes the chair.)

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I thought I would tell you,

         22        Commissioner Marshall is ill.  This is his proposal.  He

         23        will not be here today.  He's not having at all a very

         24        successful week in relation to his health.  He's got

         25        serious problems.  He did get here one day, but he was


  



                                                                          25

          1        very, very uncomfortable.

          2             So I don't have any objection to taking it up today,

          3        because we just about have to in order to keep it moving

          4        forward, but I want to point that out to the body, that

          5        this is his proposal that he feels very strongly about,

          6        and has spoken on.  Commissioner Smith.

          7             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Excuse me, Mr. Chair.  Whatever

          8        the Chair rules is fine with me, I just want you to know

          9        that we have some very strong opposition to it, very

         10        strong, that I've expressed in the education committee.

         11        The one time I was late was the time this was voted on so

         12        I didn't get a chance to share with my colleagues my

         13        strong feelings.  So I just don't want the record to

         14        reflect that I'm kind of going behind his back or

         15        whatever.  But I just want you to know this is not going

         16        to be something that's going through smoothly.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you recommend that we take it

         18        up now?  Is that the recommendation?  I think there were a

         19        lot of other people here that supported it that could

         20        certainly -- and we can all recall Commissioner Marshall's

         21        verve in this.  I think it would be appropriate to go

         22        ahead and take it up because he didn't ask to delay it.

         23        He just let us know that he couldn't be here.

         24             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, if I may, we could

         25        proceed under the same process that we established


  



                                                                          26

          1        yesterday.  And I would ask that you recognize

          2        Commissioner Ford-Coates to explain.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  First we'll read the proposal.

          4        We are on Proposal No. 40 by Commissioner Marshall.  Would

          5        you read it, please?

          6             READING CLERK:  Proposal No. 40, a proposal to revise

          7        Article IX, Section 4, Florida Constitution; authorizing

          8        certain counties to be divided into more than one school

          9        district.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  The vote on this was 22 to

         11        10.  Commissioner Ford-Coates.

         12             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  Commissioners, before we

         13        take the individual proposals, let me summarize for you

         14        what we are dealing with relating to education.

         15             We have four proposals which are in your blue packet.

         16        The three proposals in your blue packet are Proposal 40,

         17        which is Commissioner Marshall's proposal, which deals

         18        with the division of school districts at the option of the

         19        county in -- with student population of more than 75,000

         20        students.

         21             The second proposal in your blue packet is the

         22        Committee Substitute for Proposal 157 which defines

         23        adequate provision of education, and I believe we have an

         24        amendment on behalf of Style and Drafting in that

         25        proposal.


  



                                                                          27

          1             The third proposal is Proposal 181 which defines

          2        education as a fundamental right, which is Commissioner

          3        Brochin's proposal.  And I believe he may have an

          4        amendment on that.

          5             And the final proposal has just been placed on your

          6        desk, or will be shortly, which is a proposal by

          7        Commissioner Riley dealing with the appointed state Board

          8        of Education.  This proposal is also in wording within the

          9        Cabinet reform package, but is a separate proposal in

         10        addition.  So that is the order in which we will be taking

         11        up all of those items.

         12             With that sense, Proposal 40 has been read.  Would

         13        anyone like to act on behalf of Commissioner Marshall to

         14        present the arguments in favor of Proposal 40?

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  She has asked for a proponent of

         16        Proposal 40.  I believe Commissioner Riley was Vice

         17        Chairman of the Education Committee.  Commissioner

         18        Jennings, Commissioner Jennings, Commissioner Jennings,

         19        Proposal 40 which is Commissioner Marshall's proposal, he

         20        is not here to present this, and I was going to defer to

         21        the Vice Chairman of the Education Committee to present it

         22        for him and I didn't want to do that over your being

         23        chairman.  You might want to present it for him.  Do you

         24        believe that Commissioner Riley could do this?

         25        Commissioner Jennings.


  



                                                                          28

          1             COMMMISSIONER JENNINGS:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I

          2        would be glad to tell you what I know about the proposal

          3        and maybe between Commissioner Riley and I, we can give

          4        you some insight.  I think we differ on our support of the

          5        proposal, however, unless something has happened that I

          6        didn't know about.

          7             I do support it, I think there is an option there,

          8        some school districts and people within those school

          9        districts have pointed that out to us.  So I'd be willing

         10        to explain what I can.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  I think Commissioner

         12        Riley was up and if you need to make other comments,

         13        Commissioner Jennings, I'll recognize you at the

         14        appropriate time.  Commissioner Riley, on Proposal 40.

         15             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  I will speak briefly, repeating

         16        what Commissioner Marshall had said, and also remind you

         17        of some of the changes that have been made from this

         18        because there were some concerns.  There were some

         19        concerns -- the original proposal had a very low number of

         20        population for giving, to give counties the option to

         21        divide their school districts and that number was changed

         22        to 75,000.

         23             Commissioner Marshall's concerns are some that we all

         24        have concerning the educational system in the state of

         25        Florida.  And he feels very strongly that this proposal


  



                                                                          29

          1        would give parents and students in that school district a

          2        closer tie to their school boards and with that, they

          3        could have more involvement in their school system, and

          4        with that the school system within that school district

          5        would improve.

          6             So I say those words for Commissioner Marshall who is

          7        not here.  And I'll turn it over to Commissioner Jennings.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Jennings as a

          9        proponent of Proposal 40.

         10             COMMMISSIONER JENNINGS:  Commissioners, I think we

         11        have discussed this several times.  I know I could speak

         12        for Commissioner Marshall in the fact that his belief, and

         13        there is some scientific evidence to say, that smaller is

         14        better.  I think we all believe that smaller classrooms

         15        are better.

         16             Smaller school districts, whether they are broken up

         17        into individual districts or whether they are divided into

         18        one district with satellites, for lack of a better term,

         19        have oftentimes been deemed better because they are more

         20        manageable, people will know -- a superintendent will know

         21        every principal within the district, things of that

         22        nature.  I think that's where all of this comes from.

         23             The Legislature dealt with it at one level this year.

         24        We did not go forward with the entire proposal because in

         25        fact we found that there were some obstructions to it


  



                                                                          30

          1        right there in the Constitution.  There wasn't much we

          2        could do.

          3             I think Commissioner Marshall has narrowed this as

          4        finely as he could to satisfy those concerns that I know

          5        Commissioner Smith and others have about the fact that you

          6        would have rich districts and poor districts, that you

          7        could, in one way or another, draw the line such that it

          8        would be a return to those kinds of school districts of

          9        the '50s and '60s that we tried to get away from,

         10        Commissioner Smith, and that I know you are so concerned

         11        about.

         12             Truly, and all of us know Commissioner Marshall is

         13        not of that kind of person -- is not of that kind of

         14        person, that's a real poor English sentence; isn't it --

         15        is not that kind of person and that is not his goal.  His

         16        goal is to get education into a manageable size that in

         17        fact the parents, those involved in the school system can

         18        have and feel true interaction with that school system.

         19        And often cases, larger is not better as we look at our

         20        school districts.

         21             I feel that I am not eloquently enough nor adequately

         22        enough articulating his proposal, but I do know how

         23        strongly he feels.  And after looking at it closely,

         24        knowing that our 67 existing school systems do not support

         25        this in any way, shape, or form I intended to support


  



                                                                          31

          1        Commissioner Marshall.  Thank you.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Are you an opponent

          3        or proponent?  Opponent, Commissioner Freidin.

          4             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  Commissioners, when I first

          5        heard about this proposal at one of our, I think our Fort

          6        Lauderdale public hearing I turned to whoever it was that

          7        was sitting next to me, and I don't know who it was but if

          8        you are here you will remember, and I said, this sounds to

          9        me like a return to separate but equal.

         10             And I have thought about this proposal, I have

         11        considered it ever since then because it is something that

         12        has challenged me and troubled me because I recognize that

         13        we do need to make some fundamental changes in education.

         14        I am not going to spend much time talking to you about my

         15        concerns about the separate but equal and the poor

         16        districts and the racial divisions because I know that

         17        there are others in the chamber who will talk to you about

         18        that, but I wanted to talk to you about something else.

         19             You will recall, some of you will recall that towards

         20        in early September I mailed out to all of you an article

         21        that I had seen in the New York Times Magazine about the

         22        New York School System and how the New York School System

         23        had been divided by statute actually into small districts

         24        and there were actually very small school districts,

         25        probably approaching the size that we are talking about


  



                                                                          32

          1        here that had been set up in, all through the city of New

          2        York.

          3             And the article was about the new superintendent of

          4        schools in New York who had been, who had come in, had

          5        seen the terrible problems that had resulted as a result

          6        of, that had resulted from this division and actually had

          7        gone to the Legislature and asked the Legislature to

          8        revise the statutes so that there could be one school

          9        district in New York.

         10             And without going into all of the details of that, if

         11        any of you would like to see that article again I'll be

         12        happy to provide it to you, but I assure you that the

         13        problems that come from small districts are, might be

         14        different than the problems that come in a big district

         15        but there are still serious problems.

         16             The thing that has convinced me the most on this,

         17        though, is that in school districts as presently

         18        constituted, the school superintendent and the school

         19        board can delegate, they can divide into smaller areas.

         20        They can delegate functions to very small, you know,

         21        subdistricts or divisions or whatever they want to call it

         22        and they can decentralize as much as they want to.

         23             And if this is the will of the people of a particular

         24        school district now, let them go to their school board,

         25        let them go to their school superintendent and let them


  



                                                                          33

          1        get it done that way, but let's not monkey with the

          2        Constitution in this regard.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We need a proponent,

          4        Commissioner Butterworth.

          5             COMMISSIONER BUTTERWORTH:  Mr. Chairman, thank you.

          6        Next Friday we will be meeting in Broward County for a

          7        public hearing.  There is only about six or seven counties

          8        that are affected by this particular proposal as it now

          9        stands.  One of those counties is Broward County, another

         10        county is Palm Beach County.  This is where we heard it in

         11        our public hearings.  The vote was at 22 to 10 last time.

         12             I believe a number of people are expecting to address

         13        this issue next Friday.  And I believe we should allow it

         14        to go forward.  I personally believe that breaking down to

         15        15,000 students is a number entirely too low and I plan on

         16        making a change in that later if this goes any further,

         17        but I think we do owe it to the people in those

         18        communities to allow them to address us publicly because

         19        of the strong support this has received and thereby they

         20        are expecting it to be up next week.  Thank you.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right, opponent?

         22        Commissioner Smith.

         23             COMMISSIONER SMITH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  First

         24        of all, let me acknowledge publicly that Commissioner

         25        Marshall has forgotten more about education than I will


  



                                                                          34

          1        ever know and I respect him for that.  And I know that

          2        Commissioner Marshall, who has been the floor manager for

          3        the proposal that came from someone from the public,

          4        definitely is moving forward what he thinks is best for

          5        the school system.

          6             But one thing I do know is that 100 years ago this

          7        doctrine of separate but equal was constitutionalized by

          8        the United states Supreme Court and that case of Plessy

          9        versus Ferguson now lives in infamy.  And let me tell you,

         10        I lived the Dade County experience, and that's one of the

         11        67 counties.  And I can tell you in Dade County when we

         12        decided to begin to break up the county, to allow the

         13        county to allow various individual groups to form their

         14        own cities, what we got was Key Biscayne, Aventura,

         15        Pinecrest and now the area I just moved into, which is

         16        predominantly white, Palmetto Bay are breaking away.

         17             Dade County under this proposal will have 23 school

         18        districts, 23 school boards -- could possibly have 23

         19        school districts, 23 school boards, 23 administrations.

         20             Now what we know does work is smaller schools and

         21        smaller school sizes.  There is nothing to prevent school

         22        systems from implementing whatever they need to make the

         23        schools, classes smaller, or make the schools themselves

         24        smaller.  But if we do this, unwittingly, unwittingly,

         25        because of the way the housing patterns are segregated,


  



                                                                          35

          1        Little Haiti, Little Havana, Overton, et cetera, we will

          2        inherently be adopting schools that will be rich and poor,

          3        black and white.

          4             And I think if we do this and we look back, this will

          5        not be something that we will be proud of.  And so I stand

          6        and just want to -- you know, vote however you want to

          7        vote, but I think history tells us and politics tells us

          8        that the strong will prevail.  And Coral Gables will get a

          9        school district and Key Biscayne will get a school

         10        district.  The inner city will get a school district.

         11             And personally it is not going to affect me,

         12        negatively, but it is going to affect the future of

         13        Florida negatively.  And I think we should think about

         14        this very, very carefully before we do it.  And I ask you

         15        to vote no.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  The time has expired

         17        on opponents and there is one minute left for proponents.

         18        Certainly that can be changed.  Commissioner Connor, are

         19        you a proponent?

         20             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Yes, sir.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You have one minute and

         22        Commissioner Riley or Jennings can close.

         23             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Pardon me, folks but I think

         24        our schizophrenia is showing.  We indicated with regard to

         25        the advantages of the local circuit option that we trusted


  



                                                                          36

          1        the people and we thought this should be decided at the

          2        local level.  With respect to the gun shows we said, we

          3        trust the people, we think this should be decided at the

          4        local level.  With respect to affirmative action we have

          5        said, we trust the people, we want them to decide.

          6             I would submit to you that when it comes to

          7        government, typically smaller is better than bigger and

          8        you get more with less.  There are plenty of safeguards in

          9        here, I think, to avoid the very problems that

         10        Commissioner Smith is legitimately and understandably

         11        concerned about.

         12             First of all, there has to be an approval of the

         13        electors in the county involved.  The initiation is made

         14        by a commission of the residents in the county involved.

         15        There is judicial review to ensure compliance with state

         16        and federal law and to ensure racial and ethnic balance.

         17             We -- our educational system has broken.

         18        Commissioner Marshall is suggesting that the people at the

         19        local level have an opportunity to fix it, let's follow

         20        through on what we said, that we trust the people and that

         21        government which is closest to the people is in the best

         22        position to decide.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  To close, either

         24        Commissioner Riley or Commissioner Jennings.  They are

         25        both pointing to each other.


  



                                                                          37

          1             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  On behalf of Commissioner

          2        Marshall, since I don't support this, I would suggest that

          3        Commissioner Jennings close.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Jennings, you have

          5        two minutes.

          6             COMMMISSIONER JENNINGS:  Actually I think

          7        Commissioner Connor did our close for us.  If we talk

          8        about allowing the people to decide on issues such as

          9        this, this proposal includes in it a referendum and the

         10        people of that county, if they have concerns about their

         11        school district, can decide one way or another.  I think

         12        that probably is the ultimate decision making.  If we say

         13        that we have trust in what the people will say if we, if

         14        in fact the people control our government, then let us let

         15        them vote on it.  Thank you.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We will now vote on

         17        Proposal No. 40.  Unlock the machine and vote.

         18             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

         20        vote.

         21             READING CLERK:  Seventeen yeas, 10 nays,

         22        Mr. Chairman.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We will proceed to

         24        Proposal No. 157.  Commissioner Ford-Coates.

         25             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  Commissioners, Committee


  



                                                                          38

          1        Substitute for Proposal 157 is that which defines adequate

          2        provision, which already appears in the Constitution,

          3        gives it a little more fleshing out of what that means.

          4             In looking at this, the Committee on Style and

          5        Drafting felt that we needed to propose an amendment.  The

          6        original proposal as you have in your blue packet placed

          7        the definition in paragraph B.  You will see in the

          8        amendment which should be being placed on your, should be

          9        on your desk now or will be shortly, actually replaces

         10        subparagraph A under Section 1, makes it clear that the

         11        definition of adequate is applicable to the public school

         12        system, the secondary school system, and not also

         13        applicable to the institutions of higher learning.

         14             There was some question as to whether or not the way

         15        we had it worded before, it also defined adequate when it

         16        came to the university and community college system.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There is an

         18        amendment.

         19             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  We didn't read the

         20        proposal.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We are going to read the proposal

         22        and then we have an amendment on the table which we will

         23        read.  Read the proposal, please.

         24             READING CLERK:  Committee Substitute for Proposal No.

         25        157, a proposal to revise Article IX, Section 1, Florida


  



                                                                          39

          1        Constitution; defining the term "adequate provision" as

          2        applicable to the system of public education.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now read the amendment by

          4        Commissioner Ford-Coates on behalf of the Style and

          5        Drafting Committee.

          6             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

          7        Drafting, on Page 1 delete Lines 13 and 21 and insert

          8        Section 1, public education:  Adequate provision shall be

          9        made by law for a uniform, efficient, safe, secure and

         10        high-quality system of free public schools that provides

         11        students the opportunity to obtain a quality education and

         12        prepare them to attend, under reasonable policies, public

         13        institutions of higher learning.  Adequate provision shall

         14        be made for the establishment, maintenance and operation

         15        of institutions of higher learning and other public

         16        education programs that the needs of the people may

         17        require.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  To explain the

         19        amendment further, Commissioner Ford-Coates.

         20             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  I would yield to

         21        Commissioner Mills.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills, Chairman of

         23        Style and Drafting, will explain the amendment.

         24        Commissioner Mills.

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, from the point of


  



                                                                          40

          1        view of the Style and Drafting amendment, this doesn't

          2        change the intent of the proposal.  It also happens to be

          3        my proposal, so I mean --

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  So you rise to support the

          5        amendment at this time and you will open on the proposal

          6        when we get there; is that correct?

          7             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, sir.  This is not

          8        substantive.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does anybody want to be heard in

         10        opposition to the amendment?  All right.  Commissioner

         11        Barkdull.  Did you want to address it to --

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'll address it to

         13        Commissioner Mills.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  He yields.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioner Mills, it

         16        appears to me, and today is the first glance I have had at

         17        this, but in first reading it, it says the state will

         18        provide an efficient, safe, secure and high-quality system

         19        of free public schools.  Then it goes on to identify,

         20        obtain a quality education and prepare them to attend,

         21        under reasonable policies, public institutions of higher

         22        learning.  Now I want to know whether that is going to

         23        include free college.

         24             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  That's actually precisely what

         25        Commissioner Ford-Coates was saying she wanted to clear


  



                                                                          41

          1        up.  No, if you read the words, it prepares them to

          2        attend.  It doesn't entitle them to attend.

          3             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It has got them all lumped

          4        together.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Are you on the amendment?

          6             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Yes, sir.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Are you reading it in connection

          8        with the proposal?

          9             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well I'm reading what they

         10        have handed me as the amendment.  It is really a

         11        substitute amendment.  And in looking at it --

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  The subject of the sentence is

         13        public schools.  And it is the duty of the public schools

         14        to prepare the students to be able to attend.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well they're going to get a

         16        quality education --

         17             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  That will prepare them to

         18        attend.

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well I know we have had

         20        litigation over this proposition in recent years and I

         21        know there is a sentiment, and if the state can afford it,

         22        I think that's fine.  But I want to be sure that we are

         23        not doing something unintentionally here, and that is,

         24        creating a free higher -- public institution of higher

         25        learning.


  



                                                                          42

          1             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well as much as I enjoy going to

          2        the University of Florida it certainly is not our

          3        intention to make it free.

          4             I believe, and as a matter of fact the language was

          5        intended to clear that up.  If there is any, if anybody

          6        has any doubt about that or suggests a different language,

          7        it is clearly not the intention of the committee.  Style

          8        and Drafting, we spent some time talking about this.  As

          9        you may recall this on the floor was an amendment by

         10        Commissioner Douglass.  And I asked the staff to go see

         11        Commissioner Douglass, I asked the staff three or four

         12        times to look at this and make sure it complied with the

         13        intent of the body.

         14             And as we have done over and over again, Style and

         15        Drafting does not change substance.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull, I just got

         17        this, but on footnote three, I think explains the position

         18        of Style and Drafting.  That's what I'm telling you.

         19             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman, one of the

         20        reasons I wanted this dialogue was to be sure we had it in

         21        the record in hopes that if it gets into controversy, the

         22        courts will look at it.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  As I look at footnote three, it

         24        says, separated Proposal 157's definition of adequate

         25        provision, which applies only to primary and secondary


  



                                                                          43

          1        years of education, from the current constitutional

          2        requirement that adequate provision shall be made, and so

          3        on.

          4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I have got the footnotes in

          5        front of me, but they don't appear in the Constitution.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you want to put them there?

          7        Commissioner Ford-Coates.

          8             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  Mr. Chairman, I might also

          9        point out that what Style and Drafting has done is

         10        separate what was originally one proposal into two

         11        sentences.  It was one long, run-on sentence.  And the

         12        second sentence clearly says, adequate provision shall be

         13        made for the establishment, maintenance and operation of

         14        institutions of higher learning.  Our intent was to

         15        obviously separate that out from the previous school

         16        system.  So we felt that that's exactly what this

         17        amendment does.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills.

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  We clearly need to separate the

         20        two because they have vastly different purposes.  You

         21        can't have a uniform system of higher education.  That

         22        isn't the goal of higher education.  It is, as we have

         23        discussed before, the goal of K through 12.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  On the amendment,

         25        Commissioner Freidin, are you an opponent or proponent?  A


  



                                                                          44

          1        question from Commissioner Freidin to Commissioner Mills.

          2             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  Commissioner Mills, towards

          3        the end of the first sentence, what is "under reasonable

          4        policies?"  I'm not sure what it modifies and I'm not sure

          5        what it means.  Could you explain it, please?

          6             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well "under reasonable policies"

          7        is part of the original amendment.  And I think the

          8        original intent was to put that in there so there didn't

          9        appear to be any guarantee that someone who attended

         10        public schools would automatically be accepted to an

         11        institution of higher learning.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  My recollection of the debate

         13        was, on that, was that that was inserted.  And I think I

         14        put it in there for that reason, to make sure that they

         15        could select students based on the particular

         16        institution's requirements.  So that a person that had a

         17        300 SAT and a .2 grade point average would not have an

         18        immediate right to be entered into the university.  I

         19        think that was the purpose of that, and I think that's

         20        what it does, I believe.

         21             Commissioner Ford-Coates, do you want to answer that?

         22             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  Mr. Chairman, I think that

         23        what we are starting to do is get to the heart of the

         24        matter and perhaps we should adopt the amendment and then

         25        get to debate.


  



                                                                          45

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  This is on the amendment only,

          2        because you haven't referred to the original proposal.

          3             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  If it is not clear, I'd be glad

          4        to talk about it because as far as I'm concerned, you can

          5        defeat the amendment because the original proposal is fine

          6        with me.  This was only done by Style and Drafting to try

          7        to clarify.

          8             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  I want to continue with my

          9        question because I am not, what I'm hearing here, and

         10        correct me if I'm wrong because maybe I haven't been

         11        listening well enough, but what I am hearing is that this

         12        is not intended to create a right to enter a public

         13        institution or to be provided with a public education for

         14        free.  So I am not sure why you need that "under

         15        reasonable policies" in there if it read, and prepare

         16        them -- and prepare them to attend public institutions of

         17        higher learning.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's in the original proposal.

         19        And we are on the amendment which just keeps that in it.

         20        I know, but that's in the original proposal.  You defeat

         21        the amendment, you are going to be arguing that again.

         22             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  May I respond?

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yes.

         24             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Actually, as I read this

         25        sentence, the way it is stated now it doesn't make any


  



                                                                          46

          1        difference, if that's what Commissioner Freidin is saying.

          2        You are saying that with or without that clause it means

          3        the same thing, editorially?

          4             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  No, actually I'm thinking that

          5        that clause makes this confusing.  I must admit I haven't

          6        compared this to the original, but what I'm looking at

          7        here, if it read, prepare them to attend public

          8        institutions of higher learning, I don't think that's

          9        ambiguous.  But I think "under reasonable policies", I'm

         10        not sure whether reasonable policies are for the

         11        preparation or for the admission or for the attending, I'm

         12        not sure.

         13             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Okay.  Here is the original,

         14        this is ambiguous.  The intent is not ambiguous and I

         15        don't think the language is ambiguous.  The original

         16        statement was, defining -- adequate provision means,

         17        efficient, safe, secure and high-quality system of public

         18        education.  All public schools -- for the purpose of

         19        allowing students the opportunity to achieve a

         20        high-quality educational level, and for providing access

         21        to attend, under reasonable policies, public institutions

         22        of higher education.

         23             Now if the goal here is to talk about public schools,

         24        under reasonable policies may or may not have a major

         25        impact, if that's what you are saying.  It seems to me


  



                                                                          47

          1        there is no implication, because the sentences are

          2        separated, that this guarantees access to higher

          3        education.  If you wish to, you know, introduce an

          4        amendment to that, it's fine.  I don't have a problem with

          5        it.

          6             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  May I respond to that?

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I think we need to move on, but

          8        you can keep responding.  You get a chance to argue this,

          9        which you are now arguing it, I think.

         10             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  Let me do that and I am going

         11        to sit down.  I think that under the original provision --

         12        and I will offer an amendment if we, if I could, if they

         13        can give me a minute -- but under the original provision,

         14        you needed the "under reasonable policies" language

         15        because you were talking about providing access.  And I

         16        think that now you are talking about preparing students to

         17        attend and I don't think you need the "under reasonable

         18        policies" language.  So I will offer that as an amendment.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  If that's the case, then you

         20        would be arguing to defeat the amendment, Commissioner

         21        Freidin, and go back to the original proposal; is that

         22        correct?

         23             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  No, not at all.  I would be

         24        offering an amendment to the amendment that would delete

         25        the words "under reasonable policies."


  



                                                                          48

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now we have got to

          2        finish this morning and if we are going to get tied up

          3        like this on amendments without them being prepared, then

          4        I'm prepared to do it.  But you should have your

          5        amendments ready on these items.  They have been on the

          6        special calendar, they have been considered by Style and

          7        Drafting and this is strictly a language problem.

          8             Commissioner Morsani has been up for a long, long

          9        time, I presume to ask a question on the amendment; is

         10        that right or to address the amendment?

         11             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  I had a question.  If we are

         12        going to take those words out, this is going to fail.  And

         13        she might as well know that now, Commissioner Freidin.

         14        I'll get my debate ready.  We are not going to dance, we

         15        are not going to dance and take out unreasonable policies

         16        in our institutions, not in my lifetime.

         17             And so adopt the amendment and then we will argue it,

         18        but if you are going to take those words out, you have got

         19        a fight.  And it won't end today.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you want to answer the

         21        question?

         22             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, I want to simplify

         23        the process.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do that.

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  And I'm going to simplify the


  



                                                                          49

          1        process by saying I think everybody understood the

          2        original provision better.  I had four people say that.

          3        So if -- which passed 23 to 1.  And if anybody has any

          4        fine editorial remarks, they can do it but I think the

          5        intention is clear.  If anybody is confused about the

          6        intention, I would just as soon, if that's consistent with

          7        the wishes, I would just withdraw the amendment and go

          8        with the original.  I think it may have caused more

          9        confusion than it was intended to.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  The amendment is

         11        withdrawn and we revert to the proposal.  And you have

         12        read the language of the proposal.  Commissioner Morsani,

         13        they are back to the original proposal, which you

         14        supported and support.  And Commissioner Connor wants to

         15        be heard on the -- it is withdrawn without objection.

         16        Commissioner Connor.

         17             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I'd like to be heard in

         18        opposition at the appropriate time.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well it is getting to be

         20        appropriate as soon as he makes his comments.

         21             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well what we have here is an

         22        opportunity to define adequate provision for education in

         23        our Constitution.  This, of course, as I think we know, is

         24        probably the most important thing we do as a state

         25        government.  It is important because of business.  It


  



                                                                          50

          1        brings business to this state if we do a good job in

          2        education.  It is important to the economy of this state,

          3        and most important, it is important to our kids.

          4             We have had lots of conversations about criminal

          5        justice problems, social opportunity, it all is focused in

          6        education.  And the public, and the public cares more

          7        about education than any other issue, year in and year

          8        out.  Florida has a constitutional provision which places

          9        at the bottom of the scale of defining what we care about

         10        in terms of quality.  This merely moves us towards the

         11        top.

         12             It doesn't do anything about requiring a uniform

         13        system of higher education.  What it does is define

         14        adequacy.  And I would just wish to respond to any

         15        questions about that now that I think we have it in a

         16        reasonably cogent posture.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.

         18             (Off-the-record comment by Commissioner Connor.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You are now ready to roll.  Okay.

         20        Anybody that wants to speak in opposition to the

         21        amendment, to the proposal, excuse me?  The amendment has

         22        been withdrawn without objection, we are now on the

         23        original proposal that passed 23 to 1.  Does anybody want

         24        to address that as an opponent?  We have had a proponent.

         25        Commissioner Evans.


  



                                                                          51

          1             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  I have a question.

          2             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We have a question, Commissioner

          3        Corr.

          4             COMMISSIONER CORR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Are we

          5        still in that posture where I can ask a question?  And

          6        bear with me because I think you probably answered this in

          7        previous discussion of this proposal but I missed it.  I'm

          8        sure somebody brought it up.

          9             But I'm wondering, what's the recourse to a parent or

         10        a student if they feel like they did not get what is

         11        defined as adequate here.  For example, if adequate is a

         12        safe school, but like happened where I lived before, a

         13        child brings a gun to school and something terrible

         14        happens, what happens when the parent then comes back with

         15        a claim against the state and said, gee whiz, if we had

         16        adequate schools, this school would have been safe and

         17        that would have never happened.

         18             In terms of security, what happens when the pedophile

         19        gets on to the school grounds and then claims it should

         20        have been secure?

         21             We can do this in every one of them.  In high

         22        quality, if my child can't get into Harvard, can I come

         23        back and say, gee, it should have been, or University of

         24        Florida may be a better example.  If it was high quality,

         25        they would have gotten into that school.  What is the


  



                                                                          52

          1        recourse?

          2             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  This doesn't create any

          3        individual cause of action because it deals with the

          4        system.  In other words, this creates an obligation and a

          5        definition that we hope the Legislature adheres to.  It

          6        wouldn't allow you to sue your school system, as an

          7        individual.

          8             You could sue the entire state if you could prove

          9        that it was not uniform and inadequate.  And in fact there

         10        have been lawsuits in the past on uniformity in both this

         11        state and other states.  But you would be suing on the

         12        system as it applies to you.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Didn't this arise because of a

         14        lawsuit and the Supreme Court, on the issue that he raises

         15        in effect saying, can they force the Legislature to

         16        provide this, that and the other, and the court was not

         17        altogether unanimous, it was a 4-3 decision in which they

         18        didn't take any action.  As I recall this came out in the

         19        previous debate.  This would strengthen the position of

         20        the state vis-a-vis that lawsuit, was my understanding.

         21             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  It would strengthen the position

         22        vis-a-vis the system.  In other words, the issue is, at

         23        least as I understand it, if one individual has a bad

         24        result, that's not enough to create an action.  But if the

         25        system is inadequate or un-uniform, and that can be shown,


  



                                                                          53

          1        then it is possible for a system to be declared

          2        unconstitutional.

          3             And the case you referred to there with adequate

          4        provision, the court was saying, four of the members --

          5        three members of the court said we currently have an

          6        inadequate system.  Justice Overton said, under certain

          7        circumstances I would find an inadequate system.  And

          8        three said, we don't find it inadequate.  So it was four

          9        to three to leave it as it is.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull, did I

         11        state the law?

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'm not going to try to state

         13        what the law is.

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I meant the Supreme Court's

         15        version of the law.

         16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'm not going to try to state

         17        that either.  I just want to ask Commissioner Mills a

         18        question.  Commissioner Mills, is the purpose of this to

         19        permit additional litigation on this subject?

         20             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  No.

         21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  What's the purpose of this

         22        proposal?

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  The purpose of this is to bring

         24        the Florida Constitution in line with a lot of the rest of

         25        the Constitutions in the country, which attempt to say


  



                                                                          54

          1        that we want to have some definition of what the

          2        obligation of the state is.  Numerous states say that

          3        their system should be efficient, high quality, safe,

          4        secure.  This is not unusual.  As a matter of fact,

          5        Florida right now is at the bottom of the totem pole on

          6        defining.

          7             And we have an opportunity to define in the

          8        Constitution our aspirations for our public school system.

          9             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  So it is an aspirational

         10        statement.  Another one of those.

         11             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Well I'm not going to mislead

         12        you and say that it couldn't result in litigation.  I

         13        personally believe that there is probably going to be

         14        litigation no matter what you do.  I'm not going to

         15        mislead you on that.  It does provide a definition.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         17        Connor -- excuse me, Commissioner Evans.  I haven't been

         18        keeping time because these have been questions, quote,

         19        unquote.  Commissioner Evans.

         20             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  My point is exactly the one that

         21        several of you have just raised.  I think that this is

         22        indeed an answer to the lawsuit, and it is indeed

         23        intended, or if not consciously intended it will have that

         24        effect, of putting this right back into the lap of the

         25        Supreme Court.


  



                                                                          55

          1             And the Supreme Court, it is my understanding, chose

          2        not to get involved in it and now it will be allowed to

          3        get involved in it.  It will be allowed to flesh out the

          4        meanings of these words, efficient, safe, secure and

          5        high-quality.  And in effect will allow the Supreme Court

          6        to become the state Board of Education and to define what

          7        is going to be taught in what manner and how much money.

          8             It will take away from the Legislature the budgetary

          9        process there as well as taking away the goals of

         10        education.  We have seen it happen in other states and we

         11        now will have the foundation to do the same thing in

         12        Florida.

         13             And going to the high quality, I would like to think

         14        that the Supreme Court could, although I don't know that

         15        it would, but I would like to think that the Supreme Court

         16        could go back to our founding fathers, all approximately

         17        250 of them who wrote the Declaration of Independence, the

         18        Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Northwest

         19        Ordinance, who were with the exception of maybe about 12

         20        of them extremely strong Christian.

         21             Thomas Jefferson, who wrote three plans of education,

         22        and himself was perhaps not Christian but who did require

         23        the teaching of the Bible in all three plans of education.

         24        I would like to think that you could not have a

         25        high-quality education without having the fundamental book


  



                                                                          56

          1        that was the basis for the foundation of this country in

          2        it.  So I would like to think that our original intent,

          3        the original lives of our fathers, their original writings

          4        would go into it.

          5             Now last time I did manage to delete the word

          6        "thorough" with a tongue in cheek presentation which you

          7        did accept and we got rid of the word thorough.  I am very

          8        sincere in thinking though that we need high quality.  Our

          9        founding fathers attended university at age 13.  The

         10        requirements of Harvard were to be able to be proficient

         11        in Latin, Greek and English.  Their freshman project was

         12        to translate in their own hand the Greek New Testament

         13        into English.  That's what high quality is, people.

         14             And in that respect, I would support this amendment,

         15        but I think you are talking about having the Supreme Court

         16        being substituted as the state Board of Education.  And in

         17        that aspect, I think that there is a separation of powers

         18        problem.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  How much time is

         20        left?  We are going to have to put a time limit on

         21        question time, too, Commissioner Barkdull.  We are going

         22        to have to put a time limit on question time because we

         23        have taken 30 minutes on this.  Commissioner Connor, you

         24        are recognized.

         25             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I do


  



                                                                          57

          1        have questions, and will affirm that the last thing that I

          2        want to see is the state Supreme Court become the state

          3        Board of Education.  But I would like to ask you some

          4        questions.

          5             Is one of the advantages of providing a

          6        constitutional definition of the term "adequate provision"

          7        that it limits the discretion of the court to define it in

          8        any way it sees fit without guidance in the Constitution?

          9             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes, that's exactly right.

         10             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  And so in a very real sense

         11        would we be circumscribing the discretion of the court by

         12        virtue of the definition that's provided?

         13             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  That's correct.

         14             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  And would you expect that by

         15        virtue of providing the definition, that the inclusion of

         16        certain language which is used to define "adequate" would

         17        be deemed to be to the exclusion of other elements which

         18        weren't included?

         19             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  I think it would.

         20             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Now, would you agree that the

         21        definition of "adequate provision" modifies system and not

         22        a particular school?

         23             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Yes.

         24             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  And so if you had a particular

         25        school which was neither efficient or deficient in terms


  



                                                                          58

          1        of safety or security or in the quality of education that

          2        it provided, would that necessarily mean that the system

          3        as a whole failed to meet the standard?

          4             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  No, it wouldn't.  There is a

          5        good example of this in Justice Overton's opinion where he

          6        said, and I think this would be sort of the threshold.  He

          7        said, if the entire school system, that is the school

          8        board, had a 40 percent literacy rate, that would be

          9        emblematic of an entire system that was broken.

         10             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Then in response to

         11        Commissioner Corr's question about litigation by parents

         12        on behalf of their child in a given school, for instance

         13        where it may have been deemed by them that adequate

         14        provision was not being made, would they be perhaps less

         15        likely to prevail than otherwise because the adequate

         16        provision refers to the system as a whole as opposed to

         17        the individuals?

         18             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  The adequate provision does

         19        refer to the system any particular school of course would

         20        be evidence of that.

         21             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  I do have a concern and a

         22        question about the term "efficient", which I certainly

         23        would aspire to and would abdicate that we have an

         24        efficient school system.  But is that a term, frankly,

         25        that could cause this whole thing to stumble?


  



                                                                          59

          1             In other words, efficient could mean a lot of things

          2        in a lot of different contexts.  It has to do with getting

          3        the most bang for the buck, it has to do with maybe

          4        eliminating or reducing bureaucracy.  It has to do with

          5        the way we deliver services.

          6             While advocating, certainly, an efficient school

          7        system, the question that I have is by including this in

          8        the language, do you potentially produce ambiguity that

          9        may be a stumbling block to the success of what you are

         10        trying to achieve?

         11             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Thank you, Commissioner Connor.

         12        I think that actually efficient is in a number of other

         13        systems.  And one of the reasons that I think we included

         14        efficient is I did not want the implication of this to be

         15        simply money.  In other words, a system could be judged to

         16        be inadequate and not require any more money to fix it.

         17        What we need to do is develop an adequate system.

         18             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  On that very question, do you

         19        think, based on your review of the cases and based on the

         20        separation of powers, would you expect that the court

         21        would accord deference to the Legislature and executive

         22        branches of government in terms of determining what's

         23        efficient and what these other provisos mean in the

         24        context of the school system?

         25             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  They would most certainly accord


  



                                                                          60

          1        deference to the Legislature, in a major way.  But that

          2        doesn't mean that the court would have to conclude simply

          3        because the Legislature concluded that it was adequate

          4        that it would be adequate.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

          6             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I move that we close debate

          7        and vote.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Without objection,

          9        debate is closed.  All right.  If you are ready, open the

         10        machine and let's vote.

         11             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

         13        vote.

         14             READING CLERK:  Twenty-six yeas, 1 nay, Mr. Chairman.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Now that's indicative

         16        of our problem.  We had a 30 minute or more thing there

         17        now.  Let's try to have a little more discipline in these.

         18        And I would like some limit on the time.  Commissioner

         19        Barkdull, I would like some motion to limit the total

         20        time, if we are going to allow questions to be asked, so

         21        that we can get this done.

         22             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well, as I understand the

         23        present procedure that we are operating on, ten minutes on

         24        the subject matter, and five minutes for the proponent of

         25        the proposal to close.


  



                                                                          61

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let's change that and have ten

          2        minutes for the total debate and five minutes for

          3        questions, if that's agreeable to you.

          4             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I would make that a motion.

          5        But I want the time to be kept by one of the young ladies

          6        in the front.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is and she informs me.  I

          8        don't rely on Commissioner Mills, because he's like me, he

          9        forgets it.

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Okay.  Then the total time

         11        will be ten minutes for presentation and questions.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  I was going to say ten

         13        minutes for presentation and close, and a maximum of five

         14        minutes for questions.

         15             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Then a total of 15 minutes

         16        possible.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Absolutely.

         18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I so move.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  All in favor, say aye;

         20        opposed?

         21             (Verbal vote taken.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Open the machine and vote.

         23             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It fails 14 to 12.  You have

         25        unlimited time for questions, you have ten minutes for


  



                                                                          62

          1        debate and five minutes to close.  Commissioner Kogan.

          2             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  It's Commissioner Kogan, right.

          3        You said Mr. Kogan.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I said Commissioner Kogan.

          5             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I didn't say Justice Kogan --

          7             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  No, no, no.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  -- I didn't say Judge Kogan, I

          9        didn't say Jerry Kogan.

         10             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  I thought you said Mr. Kogan.  I

         11        didn't want you to, you know, disappoint us and not use

         12        Commissioner.

         13             I think that the Chair is misinterpreting this last

         14        vote.  I voted no not because I wanted unlimited, I wanted

         15        less than the total 15 minutes.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Make your motion.

         17             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  I will go ahead and I will move

         18        that we limit all discussion to ten minutes, including

         19        questions.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There is a motion on

         21        the floor.

         22             COMMISSIONER KOGAN:  And the reason I do that --

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  There's a motion on the

         24        floor to limit total debate and questions to ten minutes.

         25        Now, let's not debate this for ten minutes.  Commissioner


  



                                                                          63

          1        Henderson.

          2             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  In support of the motion, we

          3        have got people over here that are getting ready to leave,

          4        the time is running out.  If we don't limit the debate and

          5        get on with it, there will be proposals here that don't

          6        have any chance of getting 22 votes.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It takes two-thirds of those

          8        present and voting under the rules to limit debate.  We

          9        have already got a limit on it, but what the motion does

         10        is change that, but it'll take a two-thirds vote.

         11        Everybody understand that?  Unlock the machine and take a

         12        vote on the motion, which is to limit total debate to ten

         13        minutes.

         14             READING CLERK:  Thirteen yeas, 11 nays, Mr. Chairman.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It fails.  Proceed with the

         16        next -- okay, we haven't voted on this, have we?  Yes,

         17        sir.

         18             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  To whose side will questions be

         19        credited, the proponents or opponents?

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well right now we are right back

         21        where we were.  It failed.  Now let's proceed.  Are we on

         22        the -- five minutes each side, two minutes to close was

         23        the original motion.  All right.  Now we voted on this, we

         24        move to the next item.

         25             The next item is by Commissioner Brochin, Proposal


  



                                                                          64

          1        No. 181.  Commissioner Brochin, you are recognized or do

          2        you want -- anything from Style and Drafting?  No.  Okay,

          3        you are recognized.  I have got to read it first.

          4             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  I have an amendment.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Read the proposal.

          6             READING CLERK:  Proposal No. 181, a proposal to

          7        revise Article IX, Section 1, Florida Constitution;

          8        providing public rights to, and state duties to provide,

          9        complete and adequate public education.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There's an amendment

         11        on the table.  Would you read the amendment by

         12        Commissioner Brochin?

         13             READING CLERK:  Commissioner Brochin offers the

         14        following amendment:  On Page 1, Lines 13 and 17, delete,

         15        "each child in this state has a fundamental right to a

         16        public education during the primary and secondary years of

         17        study and it is the paramount duty of the state to ensure

         18        that each education is complete and adequate", and assert,

         19        "the education of its children is a fundamental value of

         20        the people of the state of Florida.  It is, therefore, the

         21        paramount duty of the state to make adequate provision for

         22        the proper education of all children residing within its

         23        borders."

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  Commissioner Brochin, on

         25        the amendment, this is in your blue book, it is the


  



                                                                          65

          1        fundamental right proposal.

          2             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  The amendment is on the desk

          3        and should have been circulated.  The amendment in the

          4        book doesn't count.  I'm offering a different amendment

          5        and this is the one.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment has been circulated

          7        as to Proposal 181 by Commissioner Brochin.  Go ahead.

          8             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  What we passed out last time

          9        by a vote of 14 to 9 was the fundamental step, actually,

         10        that each child in this state would have a fundamental

         11        right to an education.

         12             I sensed a concern, and on further reading and

         13        discussion of the subject was concerned that it would

         14        create perhaps litigation in the area of special needs by

         15        people coming forward, as Commissioner Corr alluded to

         16        earlier, and claiming individual rights fundamentally had

         17        been violated, and therefore, people with special needs

         18        and juveniles, perhaps in juvenile detention centers,

         19        would bring forth claims that their fundamental right to

         20        an education had been violated.

         21             That was not the intent, initially, and that is not

         22        the intent today.  So what I've done, and I've got --

         23        actually went back and wrote ten different versions of

         24        this and came up with this, with a little bit of help from

         25        Commissioner Wetherington, is an approach that I think the


  



                                                                          66

          1        state of Florida needs to make and needs to make now.  And

          2        I want to explain it to you this way.

          3             We do not talk about education in our Constitution in

          4        any meaningful way.  What this amendment does is two

          5        things:  One, it says that the fundamental value, not

          6        fundamental right, and there's a difference there, the

          7        fundamental value of the people of this state is the

          8        education of its children.  And, Commissioners, that is

          9        aspirational.  There is no better place for an

         10        aspirational statement than the Constitution.

         11             If we are going to lay out for the people and the

         12        people's direction to its government as to what is

         13        important and what we value as a people and as a society,

         14        the Constitution is the place to put it in.  And this says

         15        clearly, and unequivocally, to all people in our

         16        government, that we value, fundamentally, the education of

         17        our children.

         18             Second, it says that the paramount duty of the state

         19        is to ensure that that education is proper for all

         20        children residing within its borders, all, all children

         21        residing within its borders.  These are not my words,

         22        these are the words of Florida's 1868 Constitution.  And

         23        it is very important as we move forward and we talk about

         24        education and where we are going with education, that when

         25        we go forward with education, none of Florida's children


  



                                                                          67

          1        get left behind.  And that's why it's critical we have

          2        this in there.

          3             Now, I have looked at this Constitution carefully,

          4        and I see a lot of people with a lot of rights.  We have

          5        rights for the men and women now, we have the rights for

          6        people of national origin, we have rights for people with

          7        physical handicap or physical disability, we have rights

          8        for people of different race, we have rights for people of

          9        different religions, we have fundamental rights to seek

         10        documents, we have fundamental rights to seek habeas

         11        corpus, we have fundamental rights to own property, we

         12        have fundamental rights to due process.

         13             Read the Constitution and tell me where the word

         14        "children" comes in.  It comes in Article I, Section 15

         15        when we talk about prosecuting them for crimes.  That's

         16        where this Constitution talks about children.  And I think

         17        the time has come now for us to put the education of our

         18        children squarely in the center of the Constitution with a

         19        statement that says to them, we value the education of our

         20        children and it will become the paramount duty of this

         21        state, legislative, executive, judicial, to ensure that

         22        that education is adequate as we have just defined through

         23        Commissioner Mills' proposal.

         24             That is the intent, that is the purpose.  It is a

         25        collective purpose, it is not an individual purpose, it's


  



                                                                          68

          1        not there to allow individual students to claim

          2        reparations, it's not there to allow individual or

          3        potential students to claim that their rights have been

          4        deprived.  It is there to put the burden on our government

          5        to take education to where it's been to a much higher

          6        constitutional level.

          7             And you cannot avail yourselves to the argument that

          8        the Legislature can do this.  The Legislature cannot do

          9        this, this is a constitutional provision.  In a

         10        constitutional law sense, it's taken what I discussed

         11        before, Florida's current constitutional language of a

         12        category one or category two and putting it where it

         13        rightfully belongs as a category four, the highest

         14        category, meaning it demands the highest responsibility of

         15        this state to provide the education for all of our

         16        children.

         17             People, you want to think of a proposal that's going

         18        to pass, if our standard is what the people want, as

         19        Commissioner Scott told us that was the standard when he

         20        was talking about the 85 percent for all prisoners,

         21        because the people want it, this is something the people

         22        of the state of Florida want to speak out on and want to

         23        speak out now.  And there's no better place than through

         24        its Constitution.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You have used seven minutes and


  



                                                                          69

          1        there's no more time to debate the proposal, unless -- I

          2        mean, to oppose it.  I guess, an amendment or something.

          3        But seven minutes on an amendment is too long, and we

          4        don't have anything in the rule that covers this.

          5             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  I apologize.  I'm used to a

          6        red light going on.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Connor, I know you

          8        wanted to be heard on this amendment and you wanted to

          9        oppose it.  And you haven't had any time to oppose it so

         10        you're recognized.

         11             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  It is

         12        certainly important, in my estimation, that we provide

         13        adequate education for our children, but I would suggest

         14        to you that it is not the paramount duty of the state to

         15        provide for the education of the children.  I don't mean

         16        to quibble about words, but words are the stuff of which

         17        Constitutions are made.  And the definition of the term

         18        "paramount", I just looked it up in the American Heritage

         19        Dictionary, is supreme in rank, power or authority,

         20        foremost.

         21             Now I would suggest to you that there are some other

         22        duties of the state that take precedence over the

         23        education of our children; the protection of innocent

         24        life, the preservation of order, the enforcement of the

         25        laws, the punishment of the guilty.  All of those, I would


  



                                                                          70

          1        submit to you, are very high-ranking, important duties of

          2        the state.

          3             If we make the education of our children the, and

          4        that's what it says, the paramount duty of our state, it

          5        takes precedence over anything else.  With all due

          6        respect, while it is of critical importance that we

          7        provide an adequate education for our children, it is a

          8        mistake, I would submit to you, to rank it the paramount

          9        duty.  This will have all kinds of implications in terms

         10        of budgetary resources and how we allocate resources and

         11        materials in this state.  While it's very important, I

         12        think it is a mistake.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  On the amendment?

         14        Now, the proponent of the amendment has had his opening

         15        and closed, he has used seven minutes.  Commissioner Corr,

         16        opponent?

         17             COMMISSIONER CORR:  Question.  I figured out a way to

         18        talk as long as I want.  A question of Commissioner

         19        Brochin.  What I'm wondering is why, Commissioner Brochin,

         20        we are using the word "proper" education here when we just

         21        defined adequate education and sort of the previous

         22        section also uses the word "adequate".  Is there a reason

         23        to shift to the "proper?"

         24             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  That is a good question.  And

         25        I do believe that the word "proper" may not be necessary


  



                                                                          71

          1        in light of the fact that we have now passed the adequate

          2        provision.  That is something that I think can probably be

          3        removed because it's not necessary.  But proper is

          4        supposed to reflect what adequate is.

          5             COMMISSIONER CORR:  To test the patience of the body

          6        here, would we be willing to take the time to amend this

          7        amendment to put the word "adequate" where it says

          8        "proper", since we just defined it, and then take the word

          9        "the" out from in front of paramount duty, as Commissioner

         10        Conner suggested, and put the word "a?"

         11             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  The answer to both of your

         12        questions, Commissioner Corr, is yes.  I think we should

         13        put the order word "a" paramount duty so now Commissioner

         14        Connor can support this.  And I'll be glad to strike the

         15        word "proper" because of the fact that we have now defined

         16        adequate provision and "proper" I don't think is

         17        necessary.  The problem is you don't know what adequate is

         18        going to be.  I didn't know if that was a Style and

         19        Drafting issue, but, yes.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Rundle and then

         21        Commissioner Morsani.

         22             COMMISIONER RUNDLE:  I just wanted to know if

         23        Commissioner Brochin will accept a friendly amendment to

         24        strike "the" and insert "a."

         25             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  Yes.


  



                                                                          72

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Morsani.

          2             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  I really want to speak to the

          3        whole thing whenever we go on the motion, I guess.  This

          4        dadgum amendment stuff has got me confused.  Commissioner

          5        Brochin, this really isn't an amendment, it is a

          6        substitute proposal.

          7             COMMISSIONER BROCHIN:  Yes.

          8             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  Can we pass on the proposal

          9        and then I would like to speak very shortly in favor.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You mean, the amendment?

         11             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  Well, the amendment becomes

         12        the proposal, I understand.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  If we pass it.

         14             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  Yeah, if we pass it.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now we have got people running

         16        around preparing amendments to the amendment, Commissioner

         17        Morsani.  I suggest we TP it and let everybody do whatever

         18        they want to do with this.  Commissioner Barkdull, it's

         19        been moved that we TP this until they got their stuff

         20        together and we'll move on to the next proposal.  Anybody

         21        opposed?  If not, without objection, we move on to

         22        Committee Substitute for Proposal 166, by the Committee on

         23        Executive, Commissioner Riley.  Read it, please.

         24             READING CLERK:  Committee Substitute for Proposal

         25        No. 166, a proposal to revise Article IX, Section 2,


  



                                                                          73

          1        Florida Constitution; providing for the appointment of a

          2        state Board of Education by the Governor and the

          3        appointment of the Commissioner of Education by the state

          4        Board of Education.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Before we start the debate, I

          6        commend you all to read the clips about one of our

          7        distinguished members who is described as sweet as sugar

          8        and tough as nails, Commissioner Evans-Jones.  It is a

          9        very fine article and I think we would all second that

         10        motion.  All right, Commissioner Riley.

         11             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

         12        Proposal 166 sets up a state Board of Education and moves

         13        the function of the state Board of Education from the

         14        Cabinet to an appointed board of seven appointed by the

         15        Governor.  That board then selects the Commissioner of

         16        Education.

         17             This is not a Cabinet reform bill, my friends, this

         18        is not a Cabinet reform bill.  This is an educational

         19        proposal.  And it speaks to the same question that all of

         20        these educational proposals speak to, including

         21        Commissioner Marshall.  And what it speaks to are in fact

         22        the, the charts that Commissioner Marshall gave to us, we

         23        got the overheads at committee, and he passed those out

         24        and shared them with us here on the floor a few weeks ago.

         25             And it shows Florida in all of these different charts


  



                                                                          74

          1        and all of the scores and all of the graduation rates and

          2        it shows Florida in the bottom quarter of every single one

          3        of them.  And in one, in terms of graduation rates, it was

          4        in fact, last.

          5             I see this as a proposal that allows us to put on the

          6        ballot the option to have true systemic change in

          7        education, and to move the responsibility of the oversight

          8        of the educational system in the state of Florida from the

          9        Cabinet, who are elected to handle insurance, to handle

         10        agriculture and other things that don't have anything to

         11        do with education.

         12             And it puts instead education oversight under the

         13        purview of a group of people who bring to that board

         14        diversity, experience, business background, a look at

         15        education and a -- a commitment to education; education,

         16        not just insurance, sub education, not just agriculture,

         17        sub education, but education.  And a lot of us have sat on

         18        state boards and you understand the experience and the

         19        passion that these people can bring to education and give

         20        this state an opportunity to do something that really can

         21        make a difference.

         22             This proposal has been recommended again and again by

         23        the people who have looked at education in the state of

         24        Florida.  And they have said to them, as their goal, the

         25        Commission on Education, for example, how, if you did


  



                                                                          75

          1        everything, if you could do anything you wanted to in

          2        education to make it better in the state of Florida, what

          3        are some of the things that you would do?  This is one of

          4        the main things they have suggested that we do.  They have

          5        recommended it for years.

          6             Council of 100, another group of highly-respected

          7        business people, they looked at education and they said

          8        the same thing.  What are some major things that we could

          9        do in the state of Florida that would really, really make

         10        a difference, and get us out of the bottom quarter of

         11        those lists and move us up.  And they also have said, if

         12        you really want to make a difference, this is something

         13        you can do.

         14             I would urge us to take education in hand, to give

         15        our voters an option to really make a difference, we all

         16        want to do that, we all see education in the state of

         17        Florida as -- whether we agree with the past proposal --

         18        is of paramount importance.  And I ask your support on

         19        this proposal and ask you to vote for 166.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  There is an amendment on the

         21        table.  Is that by the Style and Drafting?  It doesn't say

         22        who it is by.

         23             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  I apologize, yes, we did,

         24        a minor amendment to change, would you like to read the

         25        amendment?


  



                                                                          76

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Read the amendment, please.

          2             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

          3        Drafting, on Page 1, Line 17, delete, "and have such

          4        supervision", and insert "child supervise"; on Page 1,

          5        line 18, delete "is."

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  To explain the

          7        amendment for Style and Drafting.

          8             COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES:  I apologize,

          9        Commissioners, it just merely clarifies the supervise --

         10        it is a grammatical change.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Grammatical change.  All of those

         12        in favor of the amendment, say aye; opposed?

         13             (Verbal vote taken.)

         14             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It is grammatically changed.  We

         15        are now on the proposal, as amended, by Commissioner

         16        Riley.  Is there any further debate?  Commissioner

         17        Lowndes.

         18             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  I just have a question for

         19        Commissioner Riley.  If this amendment were to pass and

         20        the Cabinet reform amendment were to fail, would the

         21        appointed secretary of education, if that's what he's

         22        called at the time, be a member of the Cabinet?

         23             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  Yes, as I read this, and as I

         24        understand it, and Style and Drafting I assume has looked

         25        at that also, and yes, the person would.


  



                                                                          77

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Question.  Isn't there a

          2        provision in the Cabinet reform creating the Board of

          3        Education, or saying the Legislature can create it, isn't

          4        it?

          5             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  Mr. Chairman, this proposal also

          6        is part of the Cabinet reform bill and that's why I

          7        started off my remarks by reminding everybody that this

          8        could happen separate from the Cabinet reform proposal

          9        passing.  This can happen on its own.  It would affect the

         10        Cabinet in that it would affect that person as an elected

         11        Commissioner of Education.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Barkdull.

         13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  My inquiry was whether there

         14        was something in the schedule offering or something to

         15        straighten this out in the event that Cabinet

         16        reorganization does not pass and this does pass.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's the reason for my

         18        question.  I don't think it's clear.  And you would have

         19        to have some sort of determination made, unless there's a

         20        schedule that says, this is effective in the event the

         21        proposal to reform the Cabinet should not receive the

         22        majority vote.

         23             COMMISSIONER RILEY:  I would agree with that, but I

         24        would ask perhaps that Style and Drafting might have

         25        better expertise on that.  And that they could then add


  



                                                                          78

          1        that after this gets the 22-plus votes today when we vote

          2        on it for the last time.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills, Style and

          4        Drafting.

          5             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, we originally had

          6        this in the executive article, and it was left out in the

          7        process.  And the Rules Chairman suggested that we put it

          8        in here.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That is correct.  Because it was

         10        considered that way by that committee.  Now, there is no

         11        amendment on the table to create a schedule dealing with

         12        the issue that's been raised.  Do you want to do that or

         13        not, or do we want to proceed to just vote on the

         14        amendment?  And then it would stand up or down with the

         15        Cabinet reform.  Commissioner Mills.

         16             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, I presume after we

         17        go to public hearings and you have these two proposals

         18        coming back separately, they would have to be conformed,

         19        if they both survive on the 17th.  I mean, we would have

         20        to conform them.

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  So we don't need to worry

         22        about that now, we are just on that single issue that

         23        would survive on its own perhaps, or not, depending on

         24        what we do after public hearing.  Okay.  Does everybody

         25        understand that?  Commissioner Freidin, you want to speak?


  



                                                                          79

          1        You are recognized.

          2             COMMISSIONER FREIDIN:  I would like to speak in favor

          3        of this proposal.  And I would like each of you to think

          4        about your service here on the Constitution Revision

          5        Commission.  Each of us have come to this service with

          6        expertise in whatever limited area of life that we have

          7        developed expertise.  Some of us have none, I suppose.

          8             But the point is that it makes an awful lot of sense

          9        to me to have a group of people deciding policy for an

         10        issue that is, as we have now determined, fundamental and

         11        important and paramount as education.  It does not make

         12        sense to me to have a group of people who are experts in

         13        various different fields to be acting as a Board of

         14        Education.

         15             Let this proposal go through and let the voters say,

         16        as they should, that they want to have a group of people

         17        who have expertise in an area making decisions about this

         18        very important subject.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  The proponents have used

         20        six minutes and their time is up.  And that's excluding

         21        the time spent on questions and the amendment.  Any

         22        opponents want to speak?  If not, we'll proceed to vote.

         23             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

         25        vote.


  



                                                                          80

          1             READING CLERK:  Twenty-two yeas, 3 nays,

          2        Mr. Chairman.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you have passed

          4        Proposal 166.

          5             Are you ready to return to the other one or not?  If

          6        you are not, we have got plenty to do.  All right.  We are

          7        going back now to Proposal No. 181 in which we broke for

          8        amendments.  The proponents have used all of their time

          9        and some more.  The opponents have not.  I think the

         10        opponents still have 2 minutes left.  All right.  We are

         11        now on an amendment, however, which is on the table by

         12        Commissioner Corr.  Would you please read it?

         13             READING CLERK:  Substitute amendment by Commissioner

         14        Corr, on Page 1, Lines 13-17, delete those lines and

         15        insert:  "Section 1.  Public education.  The education of

         16        its children is a fundamental value of the people of the

         17        state of Florida.  It is, therefore, a paramount duty of

         18        the state to provide for the adequate education of all

         19        children residing within its borders.  Adequate provision

         20        shall be made by".

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Corr, on your

         22        amendment.

         23             COMMISSIONER CORR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  This

         24        responds to the previous questions.  It removes the word

         25        "the" paramount and replaces it with "a", and adds the


  



                                                                          81

          1        word "adequate" in front of education rather than

          2        "proper", since we just defined adequate in the previous

          3        proposal that we adopted by Commissioner Mills.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  This is on the amendment.

          5        Commissioner Connor.

          6             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  In opposition, respectfully,

          7        because I think it's well intentioned.  When the state has

          8        a paramount duty to provide for the education of all

          9        children, then I would suggest to you that there's likely

         10        a cause of action on behalf of every child to whom the

         11        state does not discharge that duty.  And this ultimately

         12        sort of goes back to what Commissioner Sundberg talked

         13        about with respect to sovereign immunity and whether or

         14        not it was a tort to govern.

         15             And I don't mean to suggest that Commissioner

         16        Sundberg endorses my view on this issue, but frankly, I

         17        think this opens a potential Pandora's box.  All means

         18        all.  Does that mean children who are uneducable?  Does

         19        that mean children who, you know -- do we really mean all

         20        children?  Do we really intend to confer this kind of a

         21        potential cause of action against the state or school

         22        districts or schools for failure to -- I think it is a

         23        mistake.  I think having passed the previous proposal,

         24        this is unnecessary, and I think puts us frankly on a very

         25        precarious course.


  



                                                                          82

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Other opponents or proponents to

          2        the amendment?  If not, we'll vote on the amendment.  All

          3        in favor of the amendment say aye; opposed?

          4             (Verbal vote taken.)

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Open the machine and let's vote.

          6             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

          8        vote.

          9             READING CLERK:  Nineteen yeas, 5 nays, Mr. Chairman.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you have adopted the

         11        amendment, now we are on the proposal by Commissioner

         12        Brochin as amended as amended.  We never adopted his first

         13        amendment, did we?  This is a substitute amendment, all

         14        right.  So we are now on the proposal as amended by the

         15        substitute amendment.

         16             Now, the opponents have some time left on this, the

         17        proponents don't.  If anybody is an opponent that wants to

         18        speak, you have 2 minutes.  All right.  If not, we'll

         19        proceed.  Commissioner Brochin, your time for close has

         20        been used as well.  You used eight minutes, that's all

         21        plus one.  There's only time left for the opponents.  Do

         22        you -- are you ready to vote?  If you are, we'll open the

         23        machine and vote.

         24             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Lock the machine and


  



                                                                          83

          1        announce the vote.

          2             READING CLERK:  Nineteen yeas, 5 nays, Mr. Chairman.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We now move to the

          4        next proposal.  Commissioner Lowndes.

          5             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  Yes, sir.  I do this with some

          6        trepidation, knowing that everybody has concerns and

          7        problems, but I've been advised that some of the support

          8        for Proposal 59 is about ready to leave the chamber, and I

          9        would like to move that we waive the rules and take up 59

         10        that we voted on yesterday, which passed with a majority

         11        vote.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  There is a motion that we take up

         13        59 because somebody is going to leave that's for it.  All

         14        in favor, say aye; opposed?

         15             (Verbal vote taken.)

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Well, they want you to leave.

         17        Open the machine and let's vote.

         18             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  It takes a majority vote, which

         20        it didn't get.  Lock the machine and announce the vote.

         21             READING CLERK:  Fifteen yeas, 4 nays, Mr. Chairman.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I'm wrong, it passed.  So we'll

         23        take it up.  All right.  Commissioner Lowndes, you are

         24        recognized on Proposal No. 59.

         25             COMMISSIONER LOWNDES:  You will recall the reason


  



                                                                          84

          1        that we are voting on this again after having the long

          2        debate yesterday is just to get it in the same posture as

          3        the other provisions going to public hearing and then

          4        being subject to being reconsidered or revoted on on the

          5        17th.

          6             But in any event, you recall this is the sovereign

          7        immunity proposal that it is designed to fix two problems

          8        which we have heard of.  One of them is the low caps that

          9        the Legislature has not changed since 1981, and the other

         10        is the claims bill problem, which is a problematic thing

         11        for litigants.

         12             This proposal, I think everybody understands it, I'm

         13        not going to take a long time.  I think it is a good idea

         14        in the sense that it has the propensity to provide people

         15        to be able to recover for legitimate damages without the

         16        concern that because of the arbitration provision without

         17        the concern of runaway juries raiding the treasuries of

         18        state institutions.  So I would urge you all to vote for

         19        it.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There's an amendment

         21        on the table; is that right?  Well, I know we have got to

         22        read the proposal, so let's read it.

         23             READING CLERK:  Proposal No. 59, a proposal to revise

         24        Article X, Section 13, Florida Constitution; relating to

         25        suits against the state, providing for arbitration of


  



                                                                          85

          1        certain tort claims, providing a limit on the waiver of

          2        sovereign immunity for claims submitted to arbitration.

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner Barnett.

          4             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  Just a question on a point of

          5        order.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Certainly.

          7             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  When I read the journal, it

          8        looks to me like we took up Proposal 59 yesterday, passed

          9        it, it was ordered engrossed and referred to Style and

         10        Drafting.  So I am a little confused as to why we are

         11        taking it up again today.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The reason this was done in your

         13        absence, before you arrived, is in order to have it

         14        available and not heard on reconsideration after we come

         15        back, it had to be brought up today.  Isn't that right,

         16        Commissioner Barkdull?

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Same posture as the other

         18        items that come out of Style and Drafting.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You just vote the same way you

         20        did yesterday and then it's in the posture that you think

         21        it's in now.

         22             COMMISSIONER BARNETT:  I don't understand that.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand?  What

         24        we did is we passed this with a majority.  All right.  It

         25        had to be brought back for reconsideration, right?


  



                                                                          86

          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  No, the first time.  It is

          2        the first time that it's gone to Style and Drafting,

          3        that's why we had to pull it back this morning and put it

          4        on the calendar.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now, I wish everybody had been

          6        here when we did this because I thought we understood

          7        that.  If you vote the same way you did last time, then

          8        it's right where Commissioner Barnett thinks it is.  And

          9        there really shouldn't be much need for debate unless the

         10        audience has changed so significantly you can't get a

         11        majority vote.

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Mr. Chairman?

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yes.

         14             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I would like to be heard as

         15        an opponent.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.

         17             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  The purpose of this, as I

         18        understand it from reading it and Commissioner Lowndes'

         19        explanation, is to alleviate some of the problems with

         20        claims bills.  That may be a very laudable purpose.  My

         21        only comment is the Legislature can do this by statute and

         22        I think we ought to leave it there.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let me suggest to you there are

         24        only 22 people left here.  I'm willing to go forward with

         25        this, I'm also willing to let it be withdrawn from the


  



                                                                          87

          1        calendar and let it be heard on rehearing when we get

          2        back, which is what would happen.

          3             I think it may be a little bit, as we have lost

          4        people, to get to where we can't even waive the rules.  We

          5        don't have enough people present if somebody votes one

          6        way, one vote, we can't waive the rules.  So I don't know

          7        whether you really want to bring this up or not.

          8        Commissioner Barkdull.  It is not you that's bringing it

          9        up.

         10             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Excuse me?

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I know it is not you that's

         12        bringing it up.

         13             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  No, sir, but it's here on the

         14        floor and that's why I made my comments and we are ready

         15        to vote, and I don't hear anybody withdrawing it.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner

         17        Thompson.

         18             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Commissioner Barkdull will be

         19        fine if he will yield to a question or two.

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  It is not my proposal,

         21        Commissioner Thompson.

         22             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Is it my understanding that

         23        under this proposal a plaintiff can elect to submit the

         24        claim to arbitration but the city or the county or the

         25        school board cannot?


  



                                                                          88

          1             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well it seems to be

          2        one-sided.

          3             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Can you explain to us what

          4        arbitration means?

          5             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I know what my personal

          6        definition is.  I don't know what it means in this

          7        context.

          8             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Can you tell from this

          9        proposal whether or not the people who are arbitrators,

         10        however many there are, will have to be members of the Bar

         11        as we require for other litigation in the state?

         12             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  No, sir, it does not require

         13        that.

         14             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  Can you tell from this

         15        language whether or not it is a requirement that the

         16        people who represent plaintiffs, or defendants in this

         17        situation will have to be attorneys or whether or not they

         18        can be lobbyists who are working on a contingent fee

         19        basis?

         20             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I don't know because I don't

         21        know where the claim is presented.  It originally had the

         22        claim being presented -- I guess it would have to be a

         23        lawyer because it is a tort suit and unless an individual

         24        is filing on their own behalf, they would have to be

         25        represented by a lawyer I would assume.


  



                                                                          89

          1             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  From the language of this,

          2        does it appear to you that the plaintiff can allege an

          3        amount in excess of the limited waiver of sovereign

          4        immunity, whatever that is, and however that is defined,

          5        and the city or the county or the school board or the

          6        state would have no control over that, that automatically

          7        allows them to make the election?

          8             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Well that is true to some

          9        extent now.  The claimants pick what court forum they are

         10        going into by the amount they claim.  So it would be

         11        somewhat consistent with that I would assume.

         12             COMMISSIONER THOMPSON:  That's all I have, thank you.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Zack.

         14             COMMISSIONER ZACK:  I guess it hasn't been, what, 12

         15        hours since we voted on this?  There hasn't been a single

         16        new fact that has been presented.  We have heard the same

         17        argument by the opponents.  We have heard the same

         18        discussion.  It is -- this passed 19, by 19 yeas

         19        yesterday.  I don't know why we should be debating it

         20        between yesterday and today, but again having learned my

         21        lesson once before, I felt it incumbent upon me to stand

         22        up and say something about it.

         23             This has been hotly debated, it has been discussed

         24        over and over again.  It is to fix a problem that exists,

         25        it is to bring fairness and justice to a system that has


  



                                                                          90

          1        been admittedly corrupt and unjust in the way that it has

          2        dealt with people who have had claims over $100,000.

          3             All this does is give us an opportunity to answer

          4        questions that have been raised as well by various people

          5        as to the cost involved and the effects on various

          6        governmental entities.  I have no problem being one of

          7        five people who would vote to reconsider this after the

          8        public hearings.  This is a matter that, again, should go

          9        forward and I just frankly do not understand how there is

         10        any question about it going forward at this time

         11        regardless of the number of people in this chamber.

         12             If we are going to do justice to what we have done

         13        yesterday, and in all fairness along with Commissioner

         14        Barnett, I did not understand, I do understand now after

         15        the explanation of the chair, and the Rules Chairman's

         16        discussion as to why we have to vote on it again.  I

         17        thought we had voted on it yesterday and I thought the

         18        matter was resolved, but I do understand why we have to do

         19        it.

         20             And even those of you who may not be in favor of this

         21        ultimately in order not to manipulate the system based on

         22        who is here and who is not here at a given moment in time,

         23        I urge you to vote in favor of this at this time, subject

         24        to revisiting it after the public hearings.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Ready to vote?  Open


  



                                                                          91

          1        the machine and let's vote.

          2             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

          4        vote.

          5             READING CLERK:  Seventeen yeas, 4 nays, Mr. Chairman.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  By your vote you have submitted

          7        this now for the public hearing, subject to the rules we

          8        adopted on public hearings.

          9             Now are we ready to come -- go now with Commissioner

         10        Alfonso, we haven't heard from you this morning.  You are

         11        recognized, sir.

         12             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Commissioner Mills, do you

         13        want to start off the session?  This is the packet on

         14        environmental.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Then we will move, in your pink

         16        book it is Proposals 36 and 38 by the Committee on General

         17        Provisions.  Would you read it, please?  By Commissioners

         18        Henderson and Mills.

         19             READING CLERK:  Committee substitute for Proposal

         20        Nos. 36 and 38, a proposal to revise Article II, Section

         21        7, Florida Constitution; providing that it is the policy

         22        of the state to conserve natural resources and scenic

         23        beauty for the health and welfare of its citizens and

         24        future generations, providing for provision to be made by

         25        law to protect future generations.


  



                                                                          92

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  There is an amendment on the

          2        table by Style and Drafting, which, Commissioner Alfonso,

          3        you are recognized to explain.

          4             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  This

          5        amendment adds the word "protection" and that's so that we

          6        can make this sentence --

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I had better read it, I'm sorry.

          8             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

          9        Drafting, on Page 1, Lines 20 to 21, delete the underlined

         10        language and insert the following:  "And for the

         11        conservation and protection of natural resources for

         12        future generations."

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Now, Commissioner Alfonso.

         14             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  This amendment adds the word

         15        "conservation" which makes this sentence parallel with the

         16        first sentence of this section, which states that it is

         17        the policy of the state to both conserve and protect.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Everybody understand

         19        the amendment?  All in favor of the amendment say aye.

         20             (Verbal vote taken.)

         21             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment carries.  And now

         22        on the proposal.  Commissioner Alfonso, are you going to

         23        present the proposal?

         24             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  I will explain the proposal.

         25        It is pretty simple, I can yield to Commissioner Mills.


  



                                                                          93

          1        But really this proposal strengthens Article II, Section

          2        7, by mandating the Legislature to make provisions for

          3        natural resources, conservation and protection.

          4             The Legislature is constitutionally required to

          5        provide for the abatement of air and water pollution and

          6        excessive and unnecessary noise.  It is not similarly

          7        mandated to enact laws for conservation and protection of

          8        natural resources, although it is an express policy of the

          9        state to conserve and protect natural resources.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Does everybody understand the

         11        proposal?  Any proponents wish to speak?  Of course, all

         12        of these we have dealt with before, but you certainly have

         13        the opportunity to address the proposal.  Any proponents

         14        first?  One opponent?  Commissioner Corr.  Two opponents,

         15        okay.  Commissioner Corr is first.  In the meantime if you

         16        have got a proponent, you can go next.

         17             COMMISSIONER CORR:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  My

         18        opposition to this is just strictly the basis that it is

         19        just not needed.  We already have in our Constitution, in

         20        the first line of this section it says, it shall be the

         21        policy of the state to conserve and protect its natural

         22        resources and scenic beauty.  No one would ever debate

         23        that, no one would ever oppose that and it's already been

         24        in our Constitution, it's been the policy of the state for

         25        decades.


  



                                                                          94

          1             To add this is just going to potentially go after

          2        eroding private property rights, potentially the rights

          3        that have been eroded more than any other in our state in

          4        the form of taxation and land use restrictions and zoning

          5        and all others.  I just think it is totally unneeded,

          6        while well intended.  I would ask you to vote in

          7        opposition to this.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Mills, proponent.

          9             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  Mr. Chairman, this is actually

         10        very simple.  This started out as a fairly convoluted,

         11        though well intended, bill of rights.  What it is now is a

         12        simple sentence that states the policy of the state that

         13        the Legislature will interpret.  This has no impact on

         14        personal property rights, other than what the Legislature

         15        may or may not choose to do.

         16             It is a constitutional statement of, frankly,

         17        summarizing what we are doing here.  It goes in the

         18        direction of conservation and protection, which is

         19        acquisition, which is anti-regulation.  In other words,

         20        this is the new direction of environmental law, that is,

         21        not to intrude on property rights, but to provide

         22        incentives like conservation easements, which we have done

         23        here, to provide land acquisition, like we have done here.

         24             This simply makes that statement in the Constitution.

         25        It is prospective, it is one of the least intrusive issues


  



                                                                          95

          1        that we have dealt with.  I can't imagine why anyone would

          2        truly want to oppose this.  And it does fit well with the

          3        rest of the environmental package.

          4             For example, what it says is we shall conserve and

          5        protect our natural resources for future generations.  I

          6        was thinking just to provide a counterpoint, why wouldn't

          7        I introduce an amendment that says, we shall consume and

          8        abuse our resources for this generation.

          9             Gee, maybe that's what we have been doing.  So it

         10        seems to me this is a simple statement to allow us to care

         11        for the resources for future generations.  I promise you,

         12        this does what it seems to do on its face.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner Morsani

         14        wants to explain to you why he is against it.

         15             COMMISSIONER MORSANI:  Well I thought Commissioner

         16        Corr handled it extremely well.  All the other

         17        environmental issues that are on this, we have pretty much

         18        determined that they are noncontroversial.  I think that

         19        this is a real -- I know what this is.  Let's not kid

         20        ourselves, Mr. Mills.  This is the same doggone thing

         21        that's the nose under -- the camel's nose under the tent.

         22        And it is dangerous for this body, it's dangerous for this

         23        state for long term.  I know you are shaking your head,

         24        but I just don't trust it.

         25             And I tried to be good with you fellows, but I don't


  



                                                                          96

          1        trust this and where you could go with it.  And you and

          2        your dear friend on the right down there in the

          3        Everglades, Mr. Smith, might say, hey, I have got a new

          4        opening.  And some of those fellows aren't in jail yet,

          5        but you have got some other ideas for them.

          6             I think this is bad, this is too much.  You know, it

          7        is too much aspirational.  We should defeat this, we don't

          8        need this.  The others I'm all in favor of, but this we

          9        don't need.  It is not in our best interest and I

         10        encourage you to vote against it.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Any other proponents?  Another

         12        proponent, Commissioner Connor.

         13             COMMISSIONER CONNOR:  A agree with Commissioner Corr

         14        that this is not necessary.  But what disturbs me more

         15        than anything else is that this body, while laudably

         16        seeking to protect the environment for future generations,

         17        has been absolutely unwilling to protect those future

         18        generations.  I think that's wrong, I think it is a

         19        mistake and I think it is just a sad note.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Henderson as a

         21        proponent.

         22             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  To close.  I understand

         23        there is an opponent, I want to be recognized to close.

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Oh, you have one

         25        minute.  Question, of whom?  Commissioner Mills, do you


  



                                                                          97

          1        yield to a question?  Commissioner Evans, you are

          2        recognized for a question.

          3             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  It says, it shall be the policy

          4        of the state to conserve and protect its natural resources

          5        and scenic beauty.  My question is, for whom?  Who is the

          6        first sentence addressed to?

          7             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  For the citizens of the state.

          8             COMMISSIONER EVANS:  The amendment is exactly the

          9        same wording and it is addressed to future generations.

         10        For whom, for all the years that this has been in the

         11        Constitution, has it been addressed to, the personance?

         12             COMMISSIONER MILLS:  As Commissioner Alfonso said,

         13        this is in the directive language asking the Legislature

         14        or telling the Legislature to deal with I think water

         15        quality, pollution and protection.  So it is merely a

         16        parallel sentence.

         17             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Ready to vote?  Okay.  Open the

         18        machine and let's vote.

         19             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

         21        vote.

         22             READING CLERK:  Seventeen yeas, 5 nays, Mr. Chairman.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We will proceed to the next

         24        proposal, No. 39, by Commissioner Henderson.  Anything

         25        from Style and Drafting?  Commissioner Alfonso for Style


  



                                                                          98

          1        and Drafting.

          2             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  I wonder if I could waive the

          3        rules and go to proposal No. 45 before -- we may lose one

          4        or two people and that's really the core of this whole

          5        proposal.  That's what I was trying to start with.  That's

          6        the unification.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Henderson.

          8             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Mr. Chairman, I ask

          9        unanimous consent to withdraw No. 39 to accomplish that.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Unanimous consent to withdraw

         11        No. 39.  We haven't read it, but read it and then we will

         12        withdraw it.

         13             READING CLERK:  Proposal No. 39, a proposal to revise

         14        Article VII, Section 11, Florida Constitution; providing

         15        for state bonds pledges all or part of a dedicated state

         16        tax revenue or the full faith and credit of the state for

         17        certain uses as provided by general law.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  There has been a

         19        motion to withdraw it, we need unanimous consent.  Without

         20        objection it is withdrawn by the sponsor with the consent

         21        of Style and Drafting.  All right, it is withdrawn.

         22             We now move to proposal number -- you wanted to move

         23        which one?

         24             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  That's fine, 45 is up next.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We will move to Proposal No. 45


  



                                                                          99

          1        by the Committees on Executive and Legislative and

          2        Commissioner Henderson.  Read it, please.

          3             READING CLERK:  Committee Substitute for Committee

          4        Substitute for Proposal No. 45, a proposal to revise

          5        Article IV, Section 9, Florida Constitution; creating the

          6        Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission to be composed

          7        initially of the existing members of the Game and Fresh

          8        Water Fish Commission and the Marine Fisheries Commission

          9        and providing for the powers and duties of the commission.

         10             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  There is an amendment on the

         11        table.  Would you read it?  This is by the Committee on

         12        Style and Drafting by Commissioner Alfonso.

         13             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

         14        Drafting, on Page 1, Line 16, to Page 3, Line 16, delete

         15        underlined language and insert lengthy amendment.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Alfonso on the

         17        amendment.

         18             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I'd

         19        like to remind the commission, too, that this amendment

         20        supersedes what's in the packet and to refer to that as we

         21        go through this.

         22             This amendment makes a series of changes and notably

         23        the prohibition on regulation on matters of, relating to

         24        excessive and unnecessary noise was deleted.  The

         25        subsection B schedule needed clarification regarding the


  



                                                                          100

          1        new commission's jurisdiction with respect to marine life

          2        and this amendment clarifies that jurisdiction over marine

          3        life and is limited to the current jurisdiction of the

          4        Marine Fisheries Commission.

          5             The amendment changes on the effective date of this

          6        amendment to a date certain and that's to keep the

          7        Legislature from passing laws before we actually get to

          8        the ballot.  So it is a date certain I believe of March 1,

          9        '98.

         10             And the Article XII, Section 22B changes authority to

         11        jurisdiction.  This was done to avoid the possibility that

         12        rules relating to marine life would be subject to

         13        ratification by the Government and the Cabinet.  And this

         14        is currently the case with Marine Fisheries Commission

         15        rules.

         16             And the last sentence of subsection B was rewritten

         17        to make all rules relating to marine life automatically

         18        rules of the new commission rather than requiring it to

         19        formally adopt them.  So it just makes it a little easier.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Style and Drafting has redrafted

         21        to accomplish the purposes of the original proposal; is

         22        that correct, Commissioner Henderson?

         23             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, just very

         24        briefly.  These are all purely technical issues.  And we

         25        had all the interests, all the business interests and all


  



                                                                          101

          1        the fishing interests at Style and Drafting the other day.

          2        I want you to see the evidence.  This is the handwritten

          3        amendment that all of the various interests have signed

          4        here at the bottom and it is going to be framed for future

          5        reference when all this is over with.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Henderson, I didn't

          7        sign it.  I'm an interest.

          8             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  We need your vote, however.

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  That's right.  I'm going to get a

         10        chance, right?  Everybody in favor of the amendment, say

         11        aye.

         12             (Verbal vote taken.)

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Okay.  We will move to the

         14        proposal.  This is a unification proposal.  It has been

         15        read and it is as amended.  Commissioner Alfonso to close,

         16        unless Commissioner Henderson wants to close.

         17             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  I'll keep it brief.  We have

         18        been through this before.  This proposal places the

         19        regulation of marine life under the jurisdiction of the

         20        Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission.

         21             As Commissioner Henderson stated, there is over 200

         22        conservation, environmental, hunting, fishing and animal

         23        welfare organizations that have signed on to this.  It has

         24        been editorialized in most of the major papers in the

         25        state as being a good idea and endorsed.  And I just --


  



                                                                          102

          1        over 80,000 people have signed petitions requesting this

          2        proposal be placed on the ballot.

          3             So with this language which has been worked out I

          4        just urge your positive vote on this proposal.  Thank you.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Henderson as a

          6        proponent?  Do we have an opponent.

          7             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Frank is ready to vote on

          8        this, I don't want to stop him.  You-all met my son in

          9        here Monday.  When we left he asked if we could go

         10        fishing.  I told him we couldn't go fishing until we did

         11        this, so please vote for this.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Anybody else want to be heard?

         13        If not, we will proceed to vote.  Open the machine.

         14             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine.

         16             READING CLERK:  Twenty-three yeas and zero nays,

         17        Mr. Chairman.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I wanted you to know the reason I

         19        said about this all interests signing on, that's

         20        legislative talk, it doesn't apply in this group.  We are

         21        not dealing with interests.  What you should have said,

         22        all issues have been resolved.  You have done a great job

         23        and we are all indebted to you for carrying this forward

         24        in the manner you have.

         25             Now we are moving into Proposal No. 64.  Would you


  



                                                                          103

          1        read it, please?

          2             READING CLERK:  Committee Substitute for Proposal

          3        No. 64, a proposal to revise Article VII, Section 11,

          4        Florida Constitution; providing for state bonds pledging

          5        all or part of a dedicated state tax revenue or the full

          6        faith and credit of the state for certain uses as provided

          7        by the general law.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Alfonso.

          9             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Mr. Chairman, this amendment

         10        contains a number of technical changes from Style and

         11        Drafting.

         12             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let me read the amendment.  Read

         13        the amendment, please.

         14             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

         15        Drafting, on Page 2, Lines 10 to 16, delete underlined

         16        language and insert:  "Bonds pledging all or part of a

         17        dedicated state tax revenue may be issued by the state in

         18        a manner provided by general law to finance or refinance

         19        the acquisition and improvement of land, water areas, and

         20        related property interests and resources for the purposes

         21        of conservation, outdoor recreation, water resource

         22        development, restoration of natural systems and historic

         23        preservation."

         24             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Has the amendment been passed

         25        out?  It's in the book.  Okay.  That's why I couldn't find


  



                                                                          104

          1        it.  All right.  Commissioner Alfonso, you are recognized

          2        on the amendment.

          3             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Well simply this amendment

          4        contains a number of technical changes.  And notably the

          5        state bonds, the word "state bonds" is changed to "bonds."

          6        The word "natural" is deleted from natural land as

          7        unnecessary and potentially confusing.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Question, is this a proposal that

          9        just extends P-2000 indefinitely and that's all it does?

         10        It doesn't change bonding or any of those things; is that

         11        correct?

         12             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  That's correct.

         13             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Is that the understanding?  Okay.

         14        I thought this is the one we heard so much about in public

         15        hearing.  Yes, Commissioner Henderson.

         16             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  I am getting blank stares

         17        out here when I moved to withdraw No. 39.  The reason why

         18        39 was withdrawn is that this is the proper vehicle to

         19        achieve the extension of P-2000.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Yeah, I recall that when we dealt

         21        with this before.  You said you were going to do that and

         22        that's what he has done.

         23             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  The difference, Mr. Chairman,

         24        is that 39 does not authorize full faith and credit bonds.

         25        So that was the difference.


  



                                                                          105

          1             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Correct.  Okay.  Now, does

          2        everybody understand the amendment?  All in favor of the

          3        amendment say aye; opposed?

          4             (Verbal vote taken.)

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment is adopted.  We are

          6        now on the proposal.  One of you may close.  Unless, wait,

          7        do we have an opponent?  All right.  You may close.

          8        Commissioner Henderson, you are recognized to close.

          9             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman,

         10        very briefly.  This is maybe one of the most lasting

         11        things that we will do in these chambers.  Preservation

         12        2000 is arguably the most successful program in the

         13        history of the state of Florida, having allowed us to

         14        achieve, to acquire and protect a million acres of the

         15        best of Florida before it is too late.

         16             The program will end because of a footnote at the end

         17        of the Constitution.  This will provide for the

         18        Legislature to be able to continue with a new program.

         19        And some of you already know, we are already calling the

         20        program Forever Florida.  Some of us have talked about

         21        this, you will be hearing this, this will be the first

         22        campaign speech so I'll cut it brief with this.  This will

         23        be Forever Florida, the new program to be able to continue

         24        to achieve conservation in the future.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Open the machine and


  



                                                                          106

          1        let's vote.

          2             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          3             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

          4        vote.

          5             READING CLERK:  Twenty-four yeas, one nay,

          6        Mr. Chairman.

          7             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We will move to

          8        Proposal No. 102, committee substitute for, by the

          9        Committee on General Provisions and Commissioner

         10        Henderson.  Would you read it, please?

         11             READING CLERK:  Committee Substitute for Proposal

         12        No. 102, a proposal to revise Article X, Florida

         13        Constitution, adding Section 18 to provide restrictions on

         14        disposition of conservation and recreation lands.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Alfonso.

         16             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  There is an amendment that's

         17        being passed out.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Amendment on the table --

         19             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  And I would urge you --

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  -- and it is being passed out

         21        now.  Would you read the amendment, please?

         22             READING CLERK:  By the Committee on Style and

         23        Drafting, on Page 1, Lines 13 to 22, delete underlined

         24        language and insert:  Section 18.  Disposition of

         25        conservation lands.  No interest in real property acquired


  



                                                                          107

          1        or held by the state for natural resources conservation

          2        purposes may be disposed of except by a vote of two-thirds

          3        of the members of the governing board of the entity

          4        holding title after a determination that the interest is

          5        not required for such purposes.

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Commissioner Alfonso,

          7        this is a Style and Drafting amendment.  And on the pass

          8        out, would you go over that with us because on it you have

          9        the reasons for it by the Style and Drafting.  You are

         10        recognized.

         11             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  To make it easier, but notably

         12        I can go through it very quickly.  "Lands acquired" was

         13        changed to "interest in real property."  And that includes

         14        not only interest acquired for conservation but also those

         15        held for conservation.  Some lands may have not been

         16        acquired under a conservation program but are deserving of

         17        this protection because they have come to be used for

         18        these purposes.  We discussed that last time.

         19             It makes a reference to the Board of Trustees in the

         20        Water Management District -- no, the reference was omitted

         21        to the Board of Trustees of the Water Management

         22        Districts.  Those entities are not constitutionally

         23        defined.

         24             Also, other entities hold title to conservation lands

         25        such as the Game and Fresh Water Fish and the Department


  



                                                                          108

          1        of Agriculture.  This amendment substitutes the phrase

          2        "entity holding title."

          3             Another point is "natural resource conservation

          4        purposes" replaces "conservation and recreation purposes."

          5        This latter term could be interpreted as applying only to

          6        conservation and recreation lands.  Recreation land

          7        acquisition program, the CARL Program.

          8             Then Style and Drafting also recommends that the

          9        clause "by sale or lease" be deleted.  The amendment in

         10        the packet does not include this.  So this is a new one.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  What was the reason for that?

         12             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Disposition includes both sale

         13        and lease.  And the end note in the packet erroneously

         14        stated that a land exchange would be prohibited if those

         15        terms were omitted.

         16             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Everyone understand the

         17        amendment?

         18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'd like to ask a question,

         19        please.

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Question to --

         21             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioner Alfonso.

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  -- Style and Drafting.

         23             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Commissioner Alfonso, the

         24        footnote six, except by a vote of two-thirds of the

         25        governing board of entity holding title, and then you


  



                                                                          109

          1        indicate that the state board of forestry -- the

          2        Department of Agriculture holds title to some land and it

          3        is only headed by one commissioner at this time, if we

          4        don't make some changes.  And I don't know how you are

          5        going to get two-thirds of one.

          6             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  At this point it would be all

          7        of one, all of that person.

          8             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Commissioner Henderson wants to

          9        answer that, too.

         10             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.

         11        Commissioner Barkdull, this is a very limited application.

         12        Evidently there are a few old lands that are out there

         13        that the Department of Agriculture holds.  And the

         14        important thing would be the determination and that would

         15        be --

         16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I'm not disputing the point.

         17        My only -- I understand what you are trying to do, but I'm

         18        wondering if --

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The answer Commissioner Alfonso

         20        gave is if it is one and he votes, you have got a

         21        two-thirds vote of the entity.  It may be so simple he is

         22        right.

         23             Commissioner Sundberg.

         24             COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG:  Two-thirds of one is one.

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  We could get the Supreme Court to


  



                                                                          110

          1        hold that, couldn't we, Justice Kogan?  No?  All right,

          2        Commissioner Alfonso to close, whoever wants to close.

          3             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  Commissioner Henderson, why

          4        don't you close on this.

          5             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Briefly.  This is something

          6        we need to do to establish the standard and the procedure.

          7        Right now there is uncertainty about the standard and the

          8        procedure.  It has caused litigation.  And this will allow

          9        us to be able to protect these lands for future

         10        generations.

         11             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Everybody ready to

         12        vote?  Unlock the machine and let's vote.

         13             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

         14             (Off-the-record comment.)

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  The amendment having been

         16        adopted, the proposal -- lock the machine and announce the

         17        vote.

         18             READING CLERK:  Eighteen yeas, 4 nays, Mr. Chairman.

         19             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  The proposal as

         20        amended is adopted by 18 to 4 vote.

         21             Now Proposal No. 135 by Commissioner Henderson.

         22        Commissioner Alfonso, from Style and Drafting, do you have

         23        an amendment on the table?  All right.  Well let's read

         24        the proposal.

         25             READING CLERK:  Proposal No. 135, a proposal to


  



                                                                          111

          1        revise Article VII, Section 3, Florida Constitution;

          2        allowing a local option tax exemption for owners of land

          3        used for conservation purposes, providing for

          4        authorization by general law.

          5             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Do you want Mr. Henderson to open

          6        or to explain this, Commissioner Alfonso?  All right,

          7        Commissioner Henderson, you are recognized.

          8             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

          9        This is something, again, that can only be taken care of

         10        in the Constitution.  I will share with you a secret that

         11        many of you do not know, that there is already one measure

         12        that's going to be on the ballot next year, Proposition 1.

         13        And that is one that is very similar to this that would

         14        allow a tax exemption for historic preservation.  So this

         15        one will go very much along the line of that.

         16             This came out of our work with property owners across

         17        the state.  And a similar provision, you will find this

         18        interesting, a similar provision in Texas last year passed

         19        by an 84 percent vote.  So this is what we need to, as

         20        Commissioner Corr would say, protect property rights, work

         21        with property owners, to try to reward them for good

         22        stewardship.

         23             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Any debate or discussion on the

         24        proposal?  Commissioner Alfonso.

         25             COMMISSIONER ALFONSO:  I would just like to close.  I


  



                                                                          112

          1        would just like to say that this is actually a property

          2        owners benefit here.  And as a developer I really endorse

          3        this proposal.

          4             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  You may have lost some votes.

          5             (Laughter.)

          6             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  Open the machine and

          7        let's vote.

          8             (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)

          9             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Lock the machine and announce the

         10        vote.

         11             READING CLERK:  Twenty-three yeas, zero nays,

         12        Mr. Chairman.

         13             COMMISSIONER HENDERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman and

         14        Members.

         15             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Let me say now, Commissioner

         16        Barkdull, we have ended the special order calendar for the

         17        day.  Is there anything else to come up?

         18             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  Any announcements by any

         19        member of the commission?

         20             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  Just a minute.

         21             (Off-the-record discussion.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  I don't think so.  Let me say

         23        this, if you give me your attention.  This has been,

         24        everybody is in a bad mood today.  You don't know how you

         25        can feel it up here, you know, but we got through these


  



                                                                          113

          1        matters very well and we are now moving to public hearing.

          2             And I would like to say as chairman of this group,

          3        even with this small number here, that even Commissioner

          4        Rundle who walks around and talks a lot when she is here,

          5        but she is always interrupted by Commissioner Sundberg,

          6        that you-all really have been a great group.  And it has

          7        been a real pleasure and I want to compliment the

          8        appointing authorities for their appointments and the way

          9        they have participated, particularly Commissioner Jennings

         10        and Kogan and Butterworth, I keep forgetting he is

         11        appointed himself.

         12             And so thank you.  And as your chairman, I appreciate

         13        it.  This will end our phase and now we go to public

         14        hearings.  When we come back we will be voting for 22

         15        votes for real.  Okay.  Commissioner Barkdull.

         16             COMMISSIONER BARKDULL:  I move we recess until the

         17        hour of 9:00 a.m. on Tuesday the 17th of March.

         18             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  All right.  We are in recess.

         19        Remember the public hearing dates in Fort Lauderdale next

         20        week and then in Tallahassee and so on.

         21             (Applause.)

         22             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  While you are doing that,

         23        recognize our staff, recognize our staff.

         24             (Applause.)

         25             CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS:  And that particularly,


  



                                                                          114

          1        particularly includes the Senate staff and our wonderful

          2        Secretary and her people as well as the Sergeant-at-Arms

          3        people.  You just have been great and we couldn't ask for

          4        any better service than you have given.  Thank you very

          5        much, we will all go home.

          6             (Session adjourned at 11:45 a.m.)

          7

          8

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         16

         17

         18

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                                                                          115

          1                             CERTIFICATE

          2

          3   STATE OF FLORIDA:

          4   COUNTY OF LEON:

          5
                        WE, JULIE L. DOHERTY, KRISTEN L. BENTLEY and
          6   MONA L. WHIDDON, Court Reporters, certify that we were
              authorized to and did stenographically report the foregoing
          7   proceedings and that the transcript is a true and complete
              record of our stenographic notes.
          8

          9             DATED this ______ day of ____________, 1998.

         10

         11
                                 _________________________________
         12                      JULIE L. DOHERTY, RPR

         13

         14                      _________________________________
                                 KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
         15

         16
                                 _________________________________
         17                      MONA L. WHIDDON
                                 Court Reporters
         18                      Division of Administrative Hearings
                                 1230 Apalachee Parkway
         19                      Tallahassee, Florida  32399-3060
                                 (850) 488-9675  Suncom 278-9675
         20                      Fax Filing (850) 921-6847

         21

         22

         23

         24

         25