Go to Part 2
1
1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
2
3
4
5
COMMISSION MEETING
6
7
8 VOLUME 1 OF 2
9
10 DATE: March 17, 1998
11 TIME: Commenced at 9:00 a.m.
Concluded at 12:05 p.m.
12
PLACE: The Senate Chamber
13 The Capitol
Tallahassee, Florida
14
REPORTED BY: JULIE L. DOHERTY, RPR
15 MONA L. WHIDDON
Court Reporters
16 Division of Administrative Hearings
The DeSoto Building
17 1230 Apalachee Parkway
Tallahassee, Florida
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
PAT BARTON
6 ROBERT M. BROCHIN
THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
7 KEN CONNOR
CHRIS CORR
8 SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW (ABSENT A.M. SESSION ONLY)
VALERIE EVANS
9 MARILYN EVANS-JONES
BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
10 ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
PAUL HAWKES
11 WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS
12 THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
DICK LANGLEY
13 JOHN F. LOWNDES
STANLEY MARSHALL
14 JACINTA MATHIS
JON LESTER MILLS
15 FRANK MORSANI
ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
16 CARLOS PLANAS
JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
17 KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
SENATOR JIM SCOTT
18 H. T. SMITH
ALAN C. SUNDBERG
19 JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON
PAUL WEST
20 JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON
STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
21
IRA H. LEESFIELD
22 LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN
23
24
25
3
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 SECRETARY BLANTON: All unauthorized visitors, please
3 leave the chamber. All commissioners, indicate your
4 presence, all commissioners, indicate your presence.
5 (Pause.)
6 SECRETARY BLANTON: All unauthorized visitors, please
7 leave the chamber. All commissioners, indicate your
8 presence, all commissioners, indicate your presence.
9 (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have got one that says he is
11 not here. Commissioner Sundberg, you are reflected as
12 being absent by your own vote here. Is everybody signed
13 up yet? We are ready to get going, we have got a long
14 day.
15 All right. If you will come to order, please.
16 Everybody take your seats, please, for the opening prayer.
17 If everybody would please rise for the opening
18 prayer, Commissioners. Commissioners, at this time I
19 would like to call on the Reverend James H. Monroe of
20 Tallahassee who is going to offer the opening prayer this
21 morning. Reverend Monroe.
22 REVEREND MONROE: What a sobering, thrilling task you
23 have. You are privileged. Let us pray. Eternal God,
24 whose awesome acts of creation were to bring order out of
25 chaos, light into darkness, and to separate the discrete
4
1 elements one from the other, who made all things in an
2 orderly progression, pronouncing each part to be good, who
3 culminated all by creating humanity with features similar
4 to yourself and finally pronounced the whole of your
5 creation as very good, and who gave this God-like creature
6 a charge to act in a God-like way by managing and caring
7 for your work, bless these your servants who have come
8 here today to do God-like things, to bring renewed order
9 into what always tends towards chaos, to inject fresh
10 light into what is always fading, and to separate out
11 distinct and discrete parts of human interaction which are
12 always tending to merge and intermingle and confuse.
13 Do not let your servants be diverted from the central
14 task by peripheral concerns. Give them boldness to
15 entertain lofty visions and courage to acknowledge noble
16 dreams. Grant that their fruit, the fruit of their work
17 today may be good, and at the conclusion of their work the
18 people recognize it is very good. For those of us who
19 live today and for those who shall live tomorrow, amen.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Amen. The pledge of allegiance
21 will led by Susan Evans, the daughter of Commissioner
22 Valerie Evans, along with Sara Tanner and Rachel Tanner
23 fellow home schoolers from Orlando. Where are my pledge
24 people this morning? You can stand there, if you like,
25 ladies.
5
1 (Pledge of allegiance.)
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'd like to also introduce our
3 two pages, two of our pages for today. They are Stephanie
4 and Elizabeth Provow. They are nieces of Billy Buzzett,
5 our executive director, from Grayton Beach. And if you
6 can't tell them apart, there is a good reason. They are
7 identical twins. Where are you? They are right over
8 here, and we are glad to have them. You just call for
9 them and you are going to think you got the same one.
10 Commissioner Evans, you wanted to be recognized for
11 an introduction. Commissioner Evans is recognized.
12 COMMISSIONER EVANS: I would like to recognize Sara
13 and Rachel's mom, Angela Tanner, who is here with the
14 video camera. We home school together and we have been
15 studying Florida history this year. So this is a Florida
16 history field trip for them. And then the home school dad
17 of Susan Evans is in the back, Bob Evans.
18 (Applause.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I thought he was a home school
20 mom you told me. Judge, we are glad to have you with us
21 and, ladies, likewise. Are there any other introductions
22 anybody has at this time?
23 Those of you that haven't designated your presence, a
24 couple just came in, please let the Secretary know you are
25 here. We will now proceed. Commissioner Barkdull, if you
6
1 can get a little order, I'm going to ask you to present
2 the Rules Committee report. Ladies and gentlemen,
3 Commissioners, if you would, please take your seats and we
4 will get started. We have got a long day ahead, I know
5 you know that. So as soon as we get this over with, we
6 will start moving.
7 Commissioner Barkdull, you are recognized.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
9 Members of the Commission. You have on your desk the
10 regular calendar which we will generally follow. There is
11 one item that is out of place that is under education and
12 really belongs under the executive branch. When we get to
13 the appropriate place on the calendar, I will move that we
14 temporarily pass it until we get to the executive section.
15 The book that we will be working out of today is the
16 white packet, not a colored sheet, the white packet. And
17 the reason for this is we want to work off of this because
18 it is Style and Drafting's material and it has the proper
19 lines if you want to offer amendments. The other packets
20 that you have are not in sync with this packet. So you
21 need to work off of this one, particularly in proposing
22 any amendments, because you need to have the proper line.
23 If you do not have it on your desk, raise your hand and
24 they will get it to you.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There are a couple that don't
7
1 have it.
2 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well they will get them to
3 them before we get to the calender.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is the right one right here.
5 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This packet, this white packet.
7 That's the one that we will be working off of today. Any
8 questions about that? Anybody that doesn't have it, raise
9 your hand.
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: They are coming around with
11 them, just keep your hands up.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Just keep your hands up and she
13 will get them to you.
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's the right one.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
16 Barkdull, you may proceed.
17 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: All right. You also have on
18 your desk a memorandum in reference to the procedure that
19 will be followed today with the five hands and the, for
20 reconsideration. Any amendments that will offered to a
21 matter that is brought up by five hands will be subject to
22 a majority vote. This follows the procedure that we
23 established at the last meeting as to what we would do
24 after the public hearings.
25 I would like to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we have a
8
1 time limit on debate on the issues today. And to put it
2 before the body I would move you, sir, that we have ten
3 minutes, pro and con, and two minutes for the mover of the
4 proposal to close on the items as we reach them.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All those in favor
6 say aye; opposed?
7 (Verbal vote taken.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. We will have a time
9 limit of ten minutes per proposal with two minutes to
10 close by the proponent. We will try to get a timekeeper
11 so we can kind of keep up with it because we have a lot of
12 bookwork to do today. Commissioner Barkdull, proceed.
13 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I would like to know if there
14 is any committee chairman, particularly committee Chairman
15 Mills, if he has any announcements to make at this time.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Style and Drafting Chairman
17 Mills, you are recognized.
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, the Style and
19 Drafting Committee will meet tomorrow morning at
20 9:00 o'clock, room to be announced.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You will be preparing for our
22 next meeting on the groupings; is that correct? And any
23 other matters you might have to take up. Proceed,
24 Commissioner Barkdull.
25 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I would like to know if there
9
1 are any other matters by any member of the commission they
2 want to take up before we start to vote.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody? Okay. Commissioner
4 Barkdull, go ahead.
5 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Seeing none, Mr. Chairman,
6 I'd like to have a point of personal privilege, the
7 opportunity to address --
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: First of all, without objection
9 the report and recommendations of the Rules Committee are
10 accepted. And now you may proceed. Do you have something
11 else?
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir. On a point of
13 personal privilege, I'd like to address the body from the
14 well.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are granted the privilege of
16 doing that. I think we have everybody here. No,
17 Commissioner Barnett hasn't made it yet, and Commissioner
18 Crenshaw. His plane didn't crash, it just turned around;
19 is that right, Commissioner Jennings? And I think
20 Commissioner Barnett is coming, but she probably had a
21 firm meeting.
22 Commissioner Barkdull is recognized on a point of
23 personal privilege. Please give him your attention.
24 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman and
25 Commissioners, as we begin the defining votes of this
10
1 commission, I would like to speak to you on the welfare of
2 this body. I have been asked by many members to give my
3 thoughts on the comparison of this commission with the
4 other commissions that I was privileged to serve on.
5 The '68 commission was charged differently than this
6 commission. It was a statutory commission charged with
7 the responsibility of making a complete review of the
8 Constitution of 1885, and its some 150 amendments, for
9 consideration by the Legislature. This rewrite was
10 ultimately submitted to the public in 1968 by several
11 joint resolutions adopted by the Legislature. This
12 Constitution provided the constitutional authorization for
13 a Constitution Revision Commission in the ten years
14 following its adoption and every 20 years thereafter.
15 In 1978 the Constitution Revision Commission was
16 charged differently. It was charged with the
17 responsibility of conducting public hearings and
18 recommending changes, if any. This commission recommended
19 59 proposals, all of which were defeated at the polls,
20 although many were subsequently submitted to the people by
21 joint resolution or adopted as general law. Today in
22 1998, under the same charge, we have adopted some 47
23 proposals.
24 After the '68 success of the rewrite of the
25 Constitution, those of us that were privileged to
11
1 participate in that constitutional revision were able to
2 bask in ten years of reflected success. After the 1978
3 debacle, we had to spend 20 years trying to explain the
4 failure. The first experience, obviously, made those of
5 us that participated proud. And the latter experience
6 left each of us deeply disappointed.
7 I fear that the present path of this commission, with
8 the multitude of proposals, may be embarking on the latter
9 course and not the former.
10 At the time we organized in June, each of the
11 appointing authorities gave us certain charges. Governor
12 Chiles said in part, "Today I believe our Constitution
13 needs a tune-up. I would like to see this commission use
14 a rifle shot approach and tackle a limited number of
15 revisions impacting major issues." I'd like to repeat
16 that last sentence: "A limited number of revisions
17 impacting major issues."
18 President Jennings said in part, "As we look at the
19 issues, it is almost superfluous to say we need to
20 concentrate on those issues that should be in the
21 Constitution." And I again repeat the last sentence: "We
22 need to concentrate on those issues that should be in the
23 Constitution."
24 Speaker Webster said, in speaking of responses he
25 received from prospective appointees in reference to
12
1 constitutional revision, "It should not contain
2 substantive law, that's left to the Legislature. I would
3 challenge you to leave it that way. The Constitution
4 Revision Commission should review carefully, should review
5 rigorously but revise cautiously." And I again repeat the
6 concluding remarks: "The Constitution Revision Commission
7 should review carefully, review rigorously, but revise
8 cautiously."
9 And Chief Justice Kogan charged: "Let's address
10 those things that we feel need to be addressed and not
11 just meet here for the purpose of changing everything."
12 And I again conclude with his final remarks: "Let's
13 address those things that we feel need to be addressed and
14 not just meet here for the purpose of changing
15 everything."
16 The '78 Constitution was prone to act as a
17 super-Legislature. And so far this commission, I believe,
18 has emulated them. We must remember we were all appointed
19 to examine the Constitution and to make recommendations,
20 if any, for change. We were not appointed to substitute
21 ourselves for the elected representatives of the people
22 and the Legislature.
23 As I have previously mentioned, one of the effects of
24 too many proposals is that negative voters, when they go
25 to the polls, will many times vote no on all proposals to
13
1 be sure they have voted against the one they came
2 specifically to vote against; whereas, those who go to the
3 polls to vote affirmatively many times vote only for the
4 propositions and do not vote on other proposals.
5 As we have all been told, this Constitution Revision
6 Commission, as an appointed body, is unique in this
7 country in its ability to submit constitutional changes.
8 Our membership, save and except the Attorney General not
9 having been elected by the people, our focus should be on
10 constitutional change and we should not encroach on the
11 legislative branch of government.
12 We need to look to the Constitution's basic
13 principles. We must give up personal preferences in
14 exchange for the ability to offer to the people of Florida
15 needed changes in our state's basic structure of
16 government. We each should give our support for a
17 proposal only if we truly believe it is needed to effect
18 constitutional change, and not to merely satisfy a
19 personal desire.
20 We must put the greater need of the state ahead of
21 any personal agendas, or personal animosities. We took an
22 oath, which reads in part as follows: To support the
23 Constitution and government of the United States and of
24 the state of Florida and that we would well and faithfully
25 perform the duties as a member of the Constitution
14
1 Revision Commission.
2 The section of the Constitution creating the revision
3 commission reads in part as follows: That we were to
4 examine the Constitution of the state, we are to hold
5 public hearings, and we are to file with the Secretary of
6 State its proposals, if any, for a revision of the
7 Constitution or a part of it.
8 We have no charge to act as a super-Legislature
9 passing general laws. Examining the proposals so far
10 adopted in light of our constitutional charge I find only
11 seven that I think truly warrant constitutional change.
12 As we have begun to take our definitive votes of this
13 commission, I hope you will also examine to determine
14 which you believe are truly needed for constitutional
15 change, and leave to the Legislature the further
16 consideration of those proposals that might be the subject
17 of general law or merit additional constitutional review.
18 With each affirmative vote we cast, we add to the
19 length of the ballot questions. The success of our work
20 and the acceptance by the people will be in inverse
21 proportion to the length of the ballot. And may each of
22 us, when this day's work is completed, feel that we have
23 discharged the responsibility reposed in us in conformity
24 with the oath we took at the onset of this commission.
25 Thank you.
15
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We will proceed. I
2 think that's enough personal privilege, that took ten
3 minutes. And I'm not going to rebut that or anything else
4 at this point. Commissioner Wetherington, did you rise
5 for recognition?
6 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: I rise to say that I take
7 issue with a number of things that Commissioner Barkdull
8 said. I don't disagree about the purposes, I think that
9 the, what I determined here is that people are voting on a
10 high-minded basis, I don't see any indication of a
11 super-legislative mentality. There may be some issues
12 that I don't think would be appropriate, but I think that
13 basically what I've felt from the beginning is that
14 everybody on the commission has been acting within the
15 spirit and purposes of the reason why we are here.
16 And if there is any implication to the contrary, I
17 specifically reject it, I don't believe in it. I believe
18 in the commission, I think everybody has done their very
19 best. They are motivated by the highest ideals and I
20 think that's what we should be remembered for.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you, sir.
22 Okay. Before we get underway, I would like to say
23 just two or three short remarks as chairman. Number one,
24 it has been a real privilege to serve this group. I don't
25 know a group of people that I have come to respect and
16
1 know as friends, regardless of whether we agreed or not.
2 This has been an outstanding group of people dedicated, as
3 Judge Wetherington just, Commissioner Wetherington just
4 said, to doing what they think is correct.
5 The only charge that you have is the one in the
6 Constitution. And, that is, you are to do what you think
7 is correct, not what I think is correct or anybody else
8 does. And each of these issues, I know, that have come
9 this far have people that are just dedicated to having
10 them on the ballot. And if it comes out that way, if we
11 had 200 that all of you together wanted, I would be out
12 supporting them. And I'm sure each of you would do the
13 same.
14 What I would like to say before we get started on
15 this journey today is thank you. Thank you for allowing
16 me to serve as your chairman, thank you for your dedicated
17 service, thank you for being great friends, thank you for
18 being true Floridians and Americans. Each one of you is
19 unique. Each one of you has unique points of view. And I
20 have had the pleasure to hear them and to stand here and
21 hear them coming from all directions.
22 But there is one thread that runs through this group.
23 We are here to do the right thing. We are not here to
24 advance somebody else's agenda. We are here to do the
25 right thing and to present before the people the
17
1 opportunity to vote on what we collectively think is the
2 right thing to vote on.
3 With that we will proceed to get started. The first
4 item on the special order is on reconsideration, the
5 Committee Substitute for Proposal 6. So there won't be
6 any misunderstanding, this is on reconsideration. If it
7 gets a majority vote, it will go forward to the next
8 meeting. It will have to go to the Style and Drafting
9 under the rules and would not be voted on for 22 votes, if
10 it gets a majority vote at this meeting. It would go
11 forward. It has to be considered by Style and Drafting
12 before we act on it.
13 So if it does, we will have to wait and see, but
14 that's my understanding of the rules. So we will start
15 with Committee Substitute for Proposal No. 6, Commissioner
16 Nabors. And, Commissioner Nabors, you are recognized
17 because you are the one that got it reconsidered.
18 We have already voted to reconsider it so it is on
19 reconsideration at the moment.
20 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know
21 whether staff is here or not, but there is an amendment
22 that Commissioner Lowndes and I worked on that should be
23 ready to be handed out that --
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: First of all, we will ask, read
25 the proposal and then read Amendment No. 1.
18
1 READING CLERK: Proposal 6, a proposal to create
2 Article VII, Section 19, Florida Constitution.
3 By Commissioner Nabors on Page 1, Line 15, through
4 Page 3, Line 6, strike all of said lines and insert
5 lengthy amendment.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So it is a
7 strike-everything amendment? Commissioner Nabors, on the
8 amendment, explain the amendment, please.
9 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Members of the Commission, this
10 is the language that I sent to you, each of you a week ago
11 by Federal Express. It does not change at all the
12 substance of the proposal, it is an attempt that
13 Commissioner Lowndes and I spent in trying to simplify the
14 language. And essentially we have collapsed the language
15 into the same three sections but into one sentence.
16 The first sentence basically reads that any
17 exemptions shall, any future exemptions shall be in a
18 single bill dealing with that exemption only and should
19 declare the advancement of the state public purpose,
20 including encouraging economic development and
21 competitiveness, supporting educational, governmental,
22 religious or charitable initiatives, while securing tax
23 fairness.
24 The second section is the issue that directs the
25 Legislature in the year 2000-2001 to do a tax fairness
19
1 initiative and to reduce the sales tax rate from six to
2 five, and to achieve revenue neutrality by either
3 repealing existing exemptions or taxing excluded services.
4 It makes it clear that in this process it can be done
5 in one or two general laws and does not require the single
6 subject considerations. In other words, there is no
7 sunset, there is no vote up and down on every exemption.
8 The Legislature is directed to do that tax fairness
9 initiative.
10 And the third section is much simpler language. It
11 is the revenue neutrality guarantee which says that in
12 that process, in the year 2000-2001, that the Legislature
13 will have to generate the same sales tax dollars as the
14 previous year, adjusted for growth. And any money in
15 excess of that will be used to reduce school property
16 taxes.
17 In the spirit of trying to move this issue to a final
18 vote, I would urge that we adopt this amendment so we
19 would have more simple language and we could have a fair
20 debate on the merits of this proposal.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Any discussion on the amendment,
22 on the amendment? If not, all in favor of the amendment
23 say aye; opposed?
24 (Verbal vote taken.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment is adopted. We are
20
1 now on the proposal as amended, which was a
2 strike-everything amendment. You may continue,
3 Commissioner Nabors.
4 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Mr. Chairman, we have on this
5 debate limited to ten minutes. Do you want to take who
6 wants to talk or how do you want me to do that?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Get going. You already used one
8 minute of your time.
9 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Well I think there are others
10 that want to talk.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well they will talk. You just
12 worry about Commissioner Nabors.
13 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Okay, Mr. Chairman, that sounds
14 good. I'm worried about Commissioner Nabors and 22 votes.
15 Let me speak to the merits of this. All of you, it's
16 been a long road since June. And as all of you know, this
17 is a proposal that I feel strong about. I think I have
18 met with each of you individually. We have attempted over
19 the period of time to reduce the proposal to simple
20 language, I think we have achieved that. And it is a
21 relatively straightforward proposition.
22 It's a proposition that in my judgment is the most
23 fundamental issue that we can look at. It goes to the
24 heart of how we raise money in this state, whether you
25 believe in education, whether you believe in basic rights,
21
1 the judicial system, we have got to have a stable and
2 dependable source of revenue for Florida to survive in the
3 next 20 years.
4 This is not a liberal proposal, it is not a
5 conservative proposal. It doesn't generate any new money,
6 it doesn't cut government, it leaves that to the
7 Legislature. But in my judgment it is a fundamental
8 proposal for Florida for the next 20 years. It is an
9 absolute fundamental -- it is what we are about as a
10 Constitution Revision Commission.
11 And those of you who may be on the fence on this
12 issue, who are debating whether to vote or not, I'll
13 represent to you the vote is close on this issue. That
14 the votes are -- but I would submit that we have an
15 obligation, almost a duty, on a proposal of this magnitude
16 to let the people debate. Let the people decide the
17 issue.
18 It will be healthy for this state to have a debate on
19 our sales tax base over the next few months. And I
20 believe that the wisdom of this proposal will survive. We
21 fundamentally have got to recognize the strain that we
22 received in trying to deal with our state needs with your
23 limited base now. There is no other place we can go.
24 There is no other place we can go.
25 The Legislature is institutionally incapable of
22
1 putting this proposal towards the people or dealing with
2 this issue. It will fail under a single subject
3 initiative process. So the only people that can put this
4 to the people for a fair debate is this commission and I
5 would urge you to vote for it.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Lowndes.
7 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Yes, sir. I rise in favor of
8 this. I would like to point out a couple things which
9 this is not. It is not a reinstitution, necessarily, of
10 the services tax, as a lot of people have suggested. And
11 it is not a sunsetting of the existing exemptions, as
12 people have suggested.
13 What it does is it reduces the sales tax and it
14 encourages the Legislature to broaden the base of the
15 sales tax. It doesn't restrict the Legislature as to how
16 to broaden the base of the sales tax, it simply encourages
17 the Legislature to do that.
18 It is, I think, from a lot of the public hearings
19 that we heard, there is an important need to broaden the
20 base. Broader based taxes are better for everybody. A
21 reduction of 5 percent certainly is a better
22 across-the-board proposition for the average person in
23 Florida.
24 So I would speak in favor of this amendment. Also,
25 the first part of it I think is also a very important
23
1 proposition, that future amendments or future exemptions
2 would have to be contained in a single bill so they
3 couldn't be done late at night and tacked on to something
4 else. So I think it is a good proposal and I would urge
5 you to vote for it.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans.
7 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Question.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Question of Commissioner Nabors
9 or Commissioner --
10 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Commissioner Nabors.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. He yields.
12 COMMISSIONER EVANS: I have seen in some newspaper
13 editorials as well as materials that we have received on
14 this issue that the rollback to 5 percent would be for two
15 years and I want that clarified. To me it says one year,
16 state fiscal year singular. And yet with the 2000-2001 I
17 take it that some people are saying two years. Am I
18 correct? What are the exact dates of that fiscal year?
19 COMMISSIONER NABORS: The rollback that will be
20 mandated is for one year. It's the year 2000-2001. There
21 is only one year rollback. After that year --
22 COMMISSIONER EVANS: It is a calender period of
23 366 --
24 COMMISSIONER NABORS: It is a state fiscal year
25 running from July the 1st to June the 30th. The
24
1 Legislature then would have the ability in future years to
2 raise the rate. The two years that's discussed is the
3 Legislature would have two years from the time it is
4 adopted, two legislative sessions, to get to the fiscal
5 year 2000-2001 budget.
6 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Two years from now?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Sundberg.
8 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Mr. Chairman, I rise to speak
9 in favor of this proposal, as I have the earlier
10 permutations of it.
11 We have had really the opportunity, unlike many other
12 bodies or almost any other body in this state, because of
13 our significant number of public hearings across the
14 state, to listen to the people about the problems that
15 face Florida. Many of them center on education. But
16 there are other problems. One that's going to have to be
17 addressed, because of action that we are proposing to take
18 and to put on the ballot having to do with the shifting of
19 costs from local governments to the state government for
20 the judiciary. And that's right and proper to do.
21 But I suggest to you that almost every one of these
22 problems will be if not cured at least eased if we can get
23 a more stable and appropriate tax system for this state.
24 We desperately need to, for state purposes, to broaden the
25 base of the taxes which we rely upon. Now, we have heard
25
1 on many instances, and I think it is an appropriate
2 comment to make, let the people at least make a judgment
3 on this issue.
4 For example, I would have let the people make a
5 judgment on whether or not they want to continue a
6 prohibition on personal income tax. They are the ones who
7 are going to be, you know, burdened with these taxes. But
8 aren't they entitled to say, We want a better Florida with
9 a broader tax base than that very narrow tax base that we
10 have had to rely on?
11 And Commissioner Lowndes is absolutely right. This
12 doesn't mandate the elimination of any exemption. But I
13 suspect if it is, you know, if it is carefully
14 scrutinized, as this directs the Legislature to do, that
15 they may arrive at the conclusion that we have become much
16 more a service-oriented state than a manufacturing or
17 goods-oriented state.
18 But that's good, too. What that means is the
19 Legislature will be obliged to reassess where we are. The
20 statement has been made that the Legislature can't
21 possibly do this because of the number of exemptions. I
22 have suggested earlier that that argument is
23 self-defeating simply because it points out there are so
24 many exemptions that the Legislature really should take a
25 look at this great volume of exemptions we have.
26
1 I suggest to you they can rationally do that. And
2 what it says is going forward, going forward the
3 Legislature before it exempts any industry or any segment
4 of our society from its taxation -- and after all, this
5 actually happens to be the backbone of a democracy and
6 that is everybody contributes from their wherewithal to
7 make this government work.
8 And so I urge you, let the people, after we have had
9 a, you know, a full debate on this issue, let the people
10 decide what they think is a fair means of taxation and
11 raising revenues for the many, many needs we have in this
12 state. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further debate?
14 Commissioner Langley.
15 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: It is kind of hard to rise
16 against three of the brightest people in here with Judge
17 Sundberg and Mr. Lowndes and Commissioner Nabors, but, you
18 know, the problem is this isn't the normal intellectual
19 and participation level in the state of Florida. If every
20 citizen was as informed as these three gentlemen, it would
21 be a great idea to submit this to the public but I dare
22 say I don't know how many of us even understand this in
23 its present state.
24 Certainly I don't think Commissioner Sundberg meant
25 to mislead us with saying this didn't mandate taxes, but
27
1 if you will look in (b) there it says, The Legislature
2 shall reduce the general state sales tax, and three lines
3 later, by taxing currently-excluded services. That's
4 pretty much of a mandate if you pass this.
5 But you have got to take it, take it home to where
6 the rubber meets the road. My old buddy Joe Lunchbucket
7 got up at 5:30 this morning and grabbed a McDonald's
8 burger on the way and reported to work. And he is going
9 to work all day. And about 5:30 he will start back home,
10 and he is not concerned with this amendment. And he does
11 not know anything about it and he is not going to take the
12 time to read about it.
13 But you know what he does? He follows the local
14 paper and he knows how his representative is voting on
15 these things. And he knows his representative and he
16 knows whether he is a tax and spend liberal or a
17 conservative. He knows something about it, and he depends
18 on him to make these decisions.
19 Because he comes up here with 400 lobbyists on each
20 side to fill him in on the information and he reads and he
21 knows the budget and he knows the effect of this
22 amendment. But don't ask those poor people out in the
23 hinterlands to have any comprehension of what this
24 amendment does.
25 And as our Judge Barkdull said earlier, you confuse
28
1 them with something like this, they are going to go in and
2 vote against everything. So if you have something on here
3 you want, don't contaminate it with this.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now the proponents
5 have just about used all the time. I'm going to recognize
6 an opponent, if there is one. Commissioner Planas. Are
7 you an opponent, Commissioner Barnett? Okay. Proceed.
8 COMMISSIONER PLANAS: My fellow commissioners, I
9 agree with Commissioner Sundberg that we have a lot of
10 problems in the state of Florida. And we have a lot of
11 tax problems, too much taxes. Everybody says that in the
12 state of Florida. We cannot burden the citizens of the
13 state of Florida with more taxes. You can call this
14 proposal anything, but I still hear that quacking that
15 says, It is a tax, it is a tax.
16 I go out and say to you all, let's go ahead and vote
17 no. We cannot bring any industry if we have got this tax
18 problem going on. Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett.
20 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Mr. Chairman, I'll be brief
21 because most members have heard my feelings on this. This
22 proposal does two things. One, it is a tax increase.
23 Believe it or not, it is a tax increase. And it is a tax
24 reduction at the same time.
25 The tax reduction obviously comes in the mandate to
29
1 reduce the sales tax for one year down 1 percent. But the
2 tax increase comes in the mandate to find $1.8 billion to
3 replace the revenues that are going to be lost by that tax
4 reduction.
5 So -- and it does mandate and it does direct where
6 you find that money. And that is in the current
7 exemptions to the sales tax and in the current services
8 that are excluded from the sales tax. So it does revise
9 the tax, the sales tax on services.
10 I have deep respect for Commissioner Nabors, and
11 others who support this, because I believe the state needs
12 to do this. But I firmly believe it is impossible to do
13 it in a deliberative, thoughtful way by mandating it in
14 the Constitution. It is a legislative function. The
15 Legislature is the one that needs to debate the public
16 policy reasons behind certain exemptions.
17 There is a presumption in this proposal that all
18 exemptions are bad. And we know that there are many
19 exemptions that serve legitimate public policy needs of
20 this state and economic development needs of this state.
21 And to wholesale eliminate those would put Florida
22 potentially at a competitive disadvantage with our
23 neighboring states. And I fear that it would have a very
24 serious impact on our economic development activities and
25 our standing with your business community around the
30
1 country.
2 And so for those reasons, I will vote against it. I
3 do believe that the provision mandating a single subject
4 is important. And I hope that if this fails, there is an
5 opportunity to find a place to put that in another
6 proposal because I think that is a constitutional issue.
7 But a mandated tax is not.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The time is up for
9 debate. And you have the right to close, Commissioner
10 Nabors.
11 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Briefly in response. There is
12 no wholesale removal of any exemptions by passage, by your
13 vote or the vote of the voters. It is the Legislature who
14 will make those fundamental public policy decisions, which
15 exemptions serve a public purpose, which serve a special
16 interest.
17 And they have two years to do that. It is
18 inconceivable they cannot do that in two years. If we
19 really believe that, then we have basically given up on
20 any ability to straighten out Florida's tax reform. If
21 everybody pays their fair share, everybody pays less. It
22 reduces the rate and spreads the base in a more broader
23 way.
24 I disagree with Mr. Langley. I trust the average
25 person, the wisdom of the average person to understand
31
1 this. They understand that there are exemptions that
2 serve a special interest and they understand the fact that
3 there is going to be a rate reduction and a fairness in
4 terms of how those exemptions are given.
5 The average person is very smart about these issues.
6 They are not tax lawyers, and they're not accountants, but
7 they see through the wisdom of a fundamentally fair
8 proposal of tax reform. And let's give them a chance to
9 have that debated and let them decide that.
10 We serve as citizens to have a rule of restraint to
11 decide what we will let people -- we have an obligation to
12 present to our citizens, our fellow citizens, things that
13 are of fundamental importance to their future. And this
14 is one of those issues. I urge strongly your vote in
15 favor of this proposal.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We will prepare to
17 vote on Proposal No. 6 as amended. Would you unlock the
18 machine and vote.
19 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everyone voted? Lock the
21 machine and announce the vote.
22 READING CLERK: Seventeen yeas, 18 nays,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you have defeated
25 Proposal No. 6.
32
1 We will now move to the special order. The next
2 proposal is Committee Substitute for Proposals 36 and 38.
3 Would you read the proposal, please?
4 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Proposal
5 Nos. 36 and 38, a proposal to revise Article II, Section
6 7, Florida Constitution.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. It takes five hands
8 to revote. Do I see five hands that want to do it? There
9 are five hands. Proceed to read -- there is an amendment
10 on the table by the Style and Drafting Committee and
11 Commissioner Mills will be recognized after it is read.
12 Read the amendment, please.
13 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Proposals 36
14 and 38, by the Committee on Style and Drafting, on Page 1,
15 Lines 21 and 22, strike "for future generations."
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills, you are
17 recognized.
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, the Committee on
19 Style and Drafting in considering this proposal and
20 specifically Commissioner Lowndes pointed out something
21 that actually made a great deal of sense. The way this
22 was written we were preserving and protecting natural
23 resources for future generations and not for ourselves.
24 So this simply means that the preserve and protect would
25 be both for this generation and for future generations.
33
1 And I think that amendment is technical.
2 Actually, if you want, Mr. Chairman, I can go ahead
3 and explain the bill briefly.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Proceed. This will be part of
5 your time.
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, sir.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well we better vote on the
8 amendment first. All those in favor of the amendment say
9 aye; opposed?
10 (Verbal vote taken.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Amendment carries. Now you can
12 proceed to debate the issue.
13 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This
14 proposal dealing with conservation and protection of
15 natural resources is both consistent with and responsive
16 to what we heard throughout this state from everybody from
17 hunters, fishermen, to gun owners, who all said, We want
18 to conserve and protect the natural resources for our
19 future.
20 I think it is also important to look at the wording.
21 Conservation and protection are the words that denote the
22 kind of programs Florida has been using in the recent
23 past, which is for land acquisition and protection of
24 long-term property use. These all protect property rights
25 and are nonregulatory in nature. That's important.
34
1 It is also important that thematically this is
2 precisely what the rest of the environmental package does
3 and sets it off. The rest of the environmental package
4 deals with lacn acquisition and preservation and
5 protection and conservation for land for future
6 generations.
7 The third issue to vote for it is because of what it
8 doesn't do. You have heard some conversation in the past
9 about whether this may or may not generate litigation. In
10 terms of determining that answer, we asked Professor
11 Gudridge of the University of Miami, and those of you who
12 were at the St. Pete hearing heard his answer. And his
13 answer was, This is not self-executing, this does not
14 generate litigation, it is not enforceable judicially, it
15 is a political directive. It is a political directive to
16 the Legislature to enact conservation and preservation
17 measures in any form they see fit.
18 You know, Mr. Chairman, I just want -- I've been
19 involved in environmental issues in a lot of different
20 countries. And the basic conservation and protection
21 issue is one that we as this generation with the
22 opportunity to vote for future conservation protections
23 should take advantage of it.
24 I was in Haiti, which is a country that has gone a
25 little bit beyond where we have in consuming our natural
35
1 resources. And I was walking in an area that used to be
2 rain forest and is as desolate and dry as any desert you
3 could see. And the program we were implementing would be
4 the replanting of trees. And all I could think about was
5 these folks that are planting the trees would never sit in
6 their shade. And the only thing that I think that they
7 thought about was that maybe their children could.
8 So I hope that we enact this conservation and
9 protection directive of the Legislature, which is
10 perfectly consistent with the rest of our package.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let me tell you that in this
12 package you have got, they are in numerical order by the
13 number of the proposal. So if you are having difficulty
14 finding them, that's the way they are set up in this
15 handout. So it's Proposal No. 36 and No. 38. And that's
16 the one we are on. But when we get to them, listen to the
17 proposal number and you can find them by going to the
18 number in the packet. Is there further debate? Does
19 anybody else want to be heard on this? Now this is a
20 22-vote vote.
21 All right. If you are ready, we will proceed to
22 vote. Unlock the machine and let's vote.
23 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everybody voted? Lock the
25 machine and announce the vote.
36
1 READING CLERK: Twenty-three yeas, 12 nays,
2 Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you have sent this
4 to the ballot.
5 Proceed to the next proposal, which is Committee
6 Substitute for Committee Substitute for Proposal 45 by the
7 Committee on Executive and Legislative and Commissioner
8 Henderson. This is the unification amendment. There is
9 one amendment on the table. Would you read it, please,
10 and then we will read the amendment that's on the table.
11 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Committee
12 Substitute for Proposal No. 45, a proposal to revise
13 Article IV, Section 9, Florida Constitution.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Before we proceed
15 with the amendment, are there five hands that want to
16 proceed with this? It received 23 votes so if you don't
17 raise five hands it will go to the ballot.
18 There are five hands. Now please read the amendment.
19 Commissioner Henderson, you almost won. Read the
20 amendment, please.
21 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Thompson, on Page 1,
22 Line 23, delete that line and insert "life and freshwater
23 aquatic life, and shall also exercise regulatory and
24 executive powers of the state with respect to marine life,
25 except" --
37
1 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have two amendments so I guess
3 we can read the second amendment if you would like or we
4 can proceed with yours, Commissioner Thompson.
5 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: It doesn't matter to me.
6 Commissioner Henderson, what's your pleasure?
7 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, what I'd like
8 to do is go ahead and read my amendment, I'll explain the
9 posture we're in --
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Read the Amendment
11 No. 2. Does everybody understand that Amendment No. 1 has
12 been read by Commissioner Thompson and we are now reading
13 Amendment No. 2 by Commissioner Henderson?
14 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Henderson, on Page 2,
15 Lines 4 through 8, after the period insert lengthy
16 amendment.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Who wants to go
18 first? Are you going first Commissioner Henderson? Go
19 ahead.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
21 I'll try to be brief. I hope the commissioners understand
22 at this point I have almost lost my voice because of
23 working through this issue yesterday. We spent about --
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: They believe it is because you
25 stayed up too late last night.
38
1 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That's also true,
2 Mr. Chairman. But the issue here relates to the --
3 actually there are two components of this: Whether all of
4 the regulatory authority concerning marine life moves from
5 DEP to the new commission, and what is the status of fees
6 derived from saltwater fishing licenses and federal
7 matching programs as a result of this transfer.
8 The Department has raised issues concerning both of
9 those things. The agreement which we worked out and has
10 been previously adopted by this commission was that the
11 regulatory authority which was being transferred was
12 narrow in scope to the Marine Fisheries Commission, as it
13 exists March 1st of 1998. That is what is being
14 transferred. We have set up the mechanism for other
15 regulatory authority to be transferred to the commission
16 by subsequent legislative acts. The only transfer by
17 operation of constitutional law, if this were to pass,
18 would be the transfer of the Marine Fisheries Commission.
19 So the amendment which Commissioner Thompson offers
20 really deals with this very narrow issue of whether or not
21 there is any regulatory authority which will currently
22 still remain at DEP. And the answer to that is, yes, we
23 did not move, for instance, manatees or turtles with this,
24 with this amendment. We have only moved the Marine
25 Fisheries Commission.
39
1 The second issue relates to saltwater fishing
2 licenses. Currently, that money is allocated for a lot of
3 different reasons, a lot of different purposes. The
4 Marine Patrol is part of that. Thirty percent of
5 saltwater fishing licenses goes to the Marine Patrol.
6 The concern is that if language is there as it is,
7 then the Legislature will be required then to send all
8 money to the new commission. And DEP is concerned that
9 some of that money would not come back to take care of
10 some of the things that they will continue to do, as
11 contemplated that they will continue to do.
12 We spent several hours yesterday with all of the
13 parties; the proponents of the initiative, the general
14 counsel for DEP, the general counsel for the Game
15 Commission, other interested parties. And I would
16 represent to the commission that we did not reach an
17 agreement on language. My amendment is my best shot at
18 it; Commissioner Thompson's amendment is his best shot at
19 it. And so that is where we are.
20 I proposed this to the Committee on Style and
21 Drafting last night. I will not speak for Commissioner
22 Alfonso, I'll let him do that, but Commissioner Alfonso
23 found that this is not a technical change but a
24 substantive change and opposes it.
25 And so that is where we are. So now that I have
40
1 explained that, Mr. Chairman, I will withdraw my
2 amendment.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So you have now withdrawn your
4 amendment; is that correct?
5 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I have now withdrawn my
6 amendment and now will defer to Commissioner Thompson.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, the amendment
8 is withdrawn and we'll now proceed to Amendment No. 1 by
9 Commissioner Thompson.
10 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: I had a question. I'm sorry,
11 Mr. Chairman, I am just a little bit slow sometimes. You
12 called that objection before --
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'll say you objected. Go ahead
14 and ask your question.
15 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: I just wanted to ask him a
16 question. You said there were two problems.
17 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That's right.
18 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: The first one was what
19 happens to license fees? The second is, what authority
20 are we transferring? Your amendment dealt only with the
21 first; is that correct?
22 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mine dealt with the
23 saltwater fishing license issue.
24 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: So if you withdraw yours and
25 even if mine passes, this proposal would require all
41
1 saltwater license fees to go directly to this commission;
2 is that correct?
3 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Under the current language,
4 that's true. Nevertheless I would argue, and maybe we
5 need to state a record here, that if there is still
6 residual regulatory authority within DEP, then this issue,
7 as with some of these other issues, are going to have to
8 be addressed by the Legislature next spring, before this
9 takes effect on July 1. And they are going to have to
10 open up the saltwater fishing license statute to be able
11 to make the allocation.
12 It's clearly contemplated by all those involved that
13 the new commission could contract with DEP to carry on any
14 number of functions that they are doing now.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Are you ready to proceed on your
16 amendment?
17 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Well right now I thought I
18 was objecting to his withdrawal and asking a question or
19 two.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Go ahead.
21 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: His withdrawal, which is kind
22 of an awkward position to be in. But I think everybody
23 needs to understand clearly what we would be doing if we
24 don't adopt his amendment. And I thought that he was
25 going to pursue his amendment and then mine would solve
42
1 the regulatory problem, his would solve the license fee
2 problem. Let me tell you what the problem is with not
3 having his amendment.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. What I'm going to do
5 is to rule that he withdraws his withdrawal. The
6 amendment is on the floor, it's Amendment No. 2 that's
7 been explained by Commissioner Henderson. And as I
8 understand it, if we adopt this one, Commissioner Thompson
9 then feels that his would be appropriate after the
10 adoption. Is that correct, Commission Thompson?
11 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Correct, Mr. Chair.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So we are on the
13 amendment by Commissioner Henderson, which he attempted to
14 withdraw which is no longer withdrawn. Commissioner
15 Morsani.
16 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: I don't understand anything
17 either one have said.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are voting on Henderson's
19 amendment.
20 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: And as a result, if I
21 understand our procedures, if we vote on his amendment and
22 adopt it, then that goes in as part of his proposal; is
23 that correct?
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct.
25 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: Well, I don't think we have
43
1 enough information to vote to accept that amendment. I
2 mean, personally, gosh, we debated these things and the
3 committees came forth with what we had up to this time. I
4 have a real serious and sincere question about taking --
5 you know, making this decision so quickly with all of the
6 deliberations that we have had for about 11 months now.
7 I must rise to oppose, I think, both of these
8 amendments rather vociferously, if I have used the right
9 language, because I think that we are embarking on some
10 dangerous ground that we don't have any business in at
11 this late stage.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are going to have quite a few
13 amendments that are offered by Style and Drafting. And as
14 I understand it, this one was going to be offered by Style
15 and Drafting, but Commissioner Alfonso felt that it had a
16 substantive matter in it. And therefore it was brought in
17 this form. Am I correct on that, Commissioner Alfonso?
18 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Absolutely, correct,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is appropriate, Commissioner
21 Thompson, for Commissioner Alfonso to speak to the
22 amendment, I think is what we'll have at the moment.
23 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Sure.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is on the Henderson
25 amendment. That's what we are on.
44
1 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Right. I just want to speak
2 to it at the appropriate time.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right, sir. Commissioner
4 Alfonso.
5 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: We spent a lot of time working
6 on this unification package and a lot of people have been
7 involved. And at the late hour we have this amendment
8 that really waters down unification. To quote a fellow
9 commissioner, is it the critters and the resource that we
10 care about or the staff that manages it? And let's really
11 think about that.
12 What is the logic of this? Are we going to split
13 fees and have a fight over who does what or are we going
14 to take care of this commission as we have been working
15 hard to do? I would remind all of you that we had a
16 unanimous vote on the pure unification proposal that we
17 have worked on from the start, a unanimous vote, zero
18 dissenting votes. I would urge you, I would implore you,
19 to not vote for this amendment.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody else want to
21 speak on the amendment? Commissioner Thompson, on the
22 amendment, Commissioner Henderson's amendment.
23 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Let me see if I can explain
24 this. It's not very difficult, fortunately, or I
25 certainly couldn't explain it. But if you look at the
45
1 present wording of the proposal on Page 1, on Line 23, it
2 says, after it delegates the authority and regulatory
3 authority, it says, "Except that all license fees for
4 taking wild animal life" -- now, that's the Game and
5 Freshwater Fish Commission right now -- "and freshwater
6 aquatic life" -- that's the Game and Freshwater Fish
7 Commission right now, they get all of those license
8 fees -- but what we add here "and marine life and
9 penalties for violating regulations shall be prescribed by
10 general law."
11 Now what that means is that all of that money, all of
12 the license fees for those things will go to the
13 commission, the new commission. And the problem is -- and
14 Commissioner Alfonso, there's nothing wrong with any of us
15 learning something at any time. And I think we'll
16 probably learn some more before this stuff comes back from
17 Style and Drafting. But what we have learned is that
18 there are federal laws that track your state license fees.
19 And so they require that in order to get the money, you
20 have got to, you have got to use that money where you send
21 your license fees.
22 And so if you send it all to the new agency for the
23 Marine Fisheries Commission, all of the federal money has
24 to go there. And all of the things that DEP presently
25 does in respect to all of that money, and part of it as I
46
1 understand it is based on a federal law named
2 Wallop-Breaux named after the legislators that initiated
3 it, and that money goes to DEP and is used in a lot of
4 different programs.
5 Now I don't know all of the things that it's used
6 for. And I just bet you that you don't know either. And
7 I just bet you that you may not think that this new
8 commission will be set up immediately to handle all of
9 that money. But I can tell you, if we are mandated in the
10 Constitution, it's going to go there, and the Legislature
11 is not going to have any discretion. They're not going to
12 have any judgment to exercise in that respect.
13 We did not intend when we set out on this -- and I'm
14 one of the people that have worked hard on it in your
15 committee and everywhere -- we did not intend to move any
16 jurisdiction of the Marine Fisheries Commission beyond
17 what it presently has.
18 If you will look on Page 2 at the bottom, sub B, that
19 is very clear. And we worked on that several times and we
20 have talked about it several times. The jurisdiction of
21 the Marine Fisheries Commission, as set forth in statutes
22 in effect on March 1st, '98, shall be transferred to the
23 new entity. It goes on to say, The jurisdiction of the
24 Marine Fisheries Commission transferred to the commission
25 shall not be expanded except as provided by general law.
47
1 Yet you are going to dump all of this money into this new
2 commission.
3 So what this amendment does is that it goes back and
4 says that the Legislature will have the jurisdiction over
5 those license fees from the Marine Fisheries. And we
6 don't upset the Game and Fish Commission and the license
7 fees that they presently get. But the license fees for
8 the Marine Fisheries is not going to automatically just be
9 dumped into the new agency. That's all the amendment
10 says. The Legislature will have that jurisdiction.
11 I expect that over a period of time that some of
12 these things are going to be transferred. I expect that
13 probably at some point, for example, the Marine Patrol's
14 functions on the water of enforcing and regulating the
15 taking of sports fish and so forth will be transferred,
16 but that's not going to be dictated if we do it this way.
17 We only transfer the jurisdiction that the Marine
18 Fisheries Commission has on March the 1st of '98, and then
19 let the Legislature fund that appropriately and don't
20 mandate that all of the license fees go there and then the
21 federal money goes there, and then the Legislature says,
22 Well, there's all of your money. And then all of the
23 programs that DEP is exercising up the rivers or wherever
24 they might be are then transferred over there and then you
25 really don't have an agency that's set up with an
48
1 appointed commission that cares about that.
2 This commission primarily is for game and fish and
3 also now saltwater fish. That's what we are really trying
4 to set up here. And DEP needs to continue its regulatory
5 authority. So for those reasons, I would request that you
6 vote for the Henderson amendment. Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Alfonso.
8 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Briefly I will read a memo
9 from DEP to you and just pick some of the operative
10 language.
11 "DEP staff and a number of programs will be adversely
12 affected by the fee transfer. Loss of those staff would
13 require that DEP do an immediate damage control
14 reorganization in several program areas so that critical
15 tasks would not go undone. The DEP would then need to
16 petition the Legislature for funds to restaff."
17 Think through that. "It could not absorb to the loss
18 of the license fees and continue to meet all of its
19 responsibilities. The division of law enforcement and the
20 division of marine resources would be most heavily
21 impacted."
22 All of us think that the Marine Patrol would not help
23 to go patrol the resources. We are going to give them the
24 saltwater fishery, but we're not going to give them the
25 fees. I would just like everyone to look through the
49
1 logic of what's happening here, and just vote on how you
2 think this should be done. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I think we have used
4 enough time, unless you want to close, Commissioner
5 Henderson.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I'm getting lots of
7 conflicting advice here. I just represent to my
8 colleagues here, we gave this our best effort. I
9 recognize the awkward position that I'm in. When I stood
10 here last time, we had all of the interests together that
11 had signed off on the language that Commissioner Thompson
12 had just read to you and this has come at the last minute.
13 When we were working through this yesterday, we were
14 saying we could do one or the other, but not both, which
15 is the reason why I withdrew my amendment. I think that
16 that part of it can be fixed with the Thompson amendment.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Ready to vote?
18 Unlock to machine and let's vote.
19 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce the
21 vote. Hold it, Commissioner Sundberg was hidden. All
22 right, we are going to include you in the roll call, come
23 up here and tell them how you voted. Okay. Close the
24 machine and lock the vote. By your vote it fails 26 to 9,
25 including Commissioner Sundberg's vote.
50
1 Now Commissioner Thompson's amendment, which is
2 Amendment No. 1 that you have that is before you.
3 Amendment 2 has been defeated.
4 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Okay. Amendment 1 was
5 previously read and you have it in front of you. And I've
6 kind of backed into the explanation of it. And it has to
7 do with the regulatory side. You just voted on what to do
8 with the license money. The second part of it is the
9 regulatory side.
10 I'll just explain that again by saying that all along
11 we have thought we were transferring a limited
12 jurisdiction, with the Legislature then having the
13 authority to come back and do whatever they wanted to in
14 that respect.
15 Under the present law -- and this is the kind of
16 thing that happens all the time in drafting. And that's
17 the reason I mentioned earlier that we review things that
18 we have done and we find that they have unintended
19 consequences sometimes.
20 But on Page 1, beginning with the sentence beginning
21 on Line 21, "The commission shall exercise" -- and this
22 will be the new and expanded commission now -- "shall
23 exercise the regulatory and executive powers of the state
24 with respect to wild animal life, freshwater aquatic
25 life" -- both of those are already the Game and Fish
51
1 Commission -- "and marine life."
2 Now I want to submit to you that that is not
3 consistent with sub B on Page 2, which says, "The
4 jurisdiction of the Marine Fisheries Commission as set
5 forth in statutes in effect on March 1st, '98, shall be
6 transferred to the Fish and Wildlife Conservation
7 Commission. The jurisdiction of the Marine Fisheries
8 Commission transferred to the commission shall not be
9 expanded except as provided by general law." That's been
10 our intent all along.
11 This provision that's on the first page is presently
12 inconsistent with that. So my amendment makes clear, and
13 shall also exercise regulatory and executive powers of the
14 state with respect to marine life as the Legislature sees
15 fit. And that's all that there is to it. It is a very
16 simple provision that just allows the Legislature to make
17 the decision as to whether to expand that jurisdiction.
18 And a lot of that is going to be based on the money. You
19 have just voted on some of that.
20 But what I'm trying to tell you is this: If you want
21 to vote with my amendment here, if you don't know what all
22 of the regulatory and executive powers of the state with
23 respect to marine life is, if you don't know what that is,
24 then you had better let the Legislature decide what it is
25 based on hearings, testimony and present programs and
52
1 future programs. That's all I'm suggesting.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Any further debate? Commissioner
3 Alfonso.
4 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Just a note. The Legislature
5 has been deciding matters of the resource for a long time.
6 So if you want to let the Legislature decide how to do
7 this, go ahead. If not, I urge you to vote against this
8 amendment.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett, just a
10 short time please.
11 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Question, just a question.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Sure.
13 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Maybe of Commissioner Thompson
14 or of Commissioner Henderson.
15 As people have talked to me about the unintended
16 consequences that may result in this particular proposal,
17 one of them is that a current unified permitting system
18 that DEP has in place, that's been very, very successful,
19 might be negatively impacted if all of the regulatory and
20 executive functions are transferred to this new
21 commission. And I've been told this is needed to make it
22 clear that some of that -- that that type of regulatory
23 control does not get transferred but remains wherever the
24 Legislature designates it, which is currently DEP.
25 Is that an accurate concern and does this take care
53
1 of that concern?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Thompson.
3 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Would my amendment take care
4 of the concern? I think so.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Are you for or against it,
6 Commissioner Barnett?
7 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: For.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: If we are ready to vote. Well,
9 unlock the machine and we'll vote on the amendment, which
10 is Commissioner Thompson's amendment.
11 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce the
13 vote.
14 READING CLERK: Nineteen yeas and 17 nays,
15 Mr. Chairman.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you have adopted the
17 amendment. Now we are on the proposal as amended, adding
18 Amendment No. 1 only. Commissioner Henderson.
19 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In
20 support of the package as now amended, I want to make very
21 clear that what we are doing is a narrow transfer of the
22 Marine Fisheries Commission to a new Fish and Wildlife
23 Conservation Commission. By the Thompson amendment, we
24 recognize that there are still some matters that still
25 remain within the regulatory authority of DEP; namely at
54
1 this time, manatees and sea turtles. There may be some
2 other things.
3 The amendment contemplates that future Legislatures
4 will be able to transfer additional authority to the new
5 commission. And as Commissioner Thompson said a few
6 moments ago, I believe that five years from now, ten years
7 from now, this will not be an issue. Because in time
8 people will see that we have a critter agency for the
9 protection and conservation of the fish and wildlife. And
10 it will be an agency that's primarily responsible for all
11 dealing with regulatory matters.
12 As I've said before, we have taken great pains to
13 work with the entire regulated community to reach
14 accommodation on a number of issues that have been raised
15 throughout this process. We have reached essential
16 agreement on all those outstanding issues.
17 I know that there are some of you, because you have
18 told me, and I believe it is true, believe it, none of
19 this stuff should be in the Constitution. The reality of
20 it is, however, that the Game Commission has been in the
21 Constitution for more than 50 years. And in that
22 capacity, the Game Commission has been able to the do an
23 outstanding job of conservation of our freshwater fish
24 resources and our nongame and game wildlife.
25 The only way that we can handle the situation of
55
1 dealing with this, frankly absurdity, of having saltwater
2 fisheries and freshwater fisheries regulated in different
3 ways is to combine them in one agency. And we have done
4 it this way.
5 The other thing that I might say to you, because I
6 know that all of you are concerned about the issue of
7 Cabinet reform. I would remind you that this is Cabinet
8 reform, because we have taken away from the responsibility
9 of the Governor and Cabinet having to deal month by month
10 with a lot of these little issues, concerning when to take
11 a lobster, the size of a sea trout, when you can or when
12 you cannot take a red fish.
13 I would also suggest to you if this had been in
14 place, all of the debate that we heard about the net ban
15 over the course of our 11 public hearings might well have
16 been moot because a commission set up in this way, to deal
17 with the issues in an independent way, perhaps would have
18 reached a different result.
19 I commend to you an amendment that has broad public
20 support, I commend to you an amendment that has probably
21 been endorsed by more newspapers than any other amendment
22 that is before us, and I commend to you an amendment which
23 has already been endorsed by the signatures of 100,000
24 citizens of this state and urge its adoption.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further debate?
56
1 This is on the 22 votes. We already got 22 once, but now
2 it's amended so we have to vote again. Unlock the machine
3 and let's vote.
4 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce the
6 vote.
7 READING CLERK: Thirty-six yeas, zero nays,
8 Mr. Chairman.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you have adopted for
10 the ballot Proposal No. 45.
11 We will now move to Committee Substitute for Proposal
12 64, Committee on Bonding and Investments. Would you read
13 it, please?
14 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Proposal
15 No. 64, a proposal to revise Article VII, Section 11,
16 Florida Constitution.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This proposal passed
18 24 to 1. Unless there is a show of five hands, it will
19 stand as passed. There's not a show of five hands, this
20 one is passed.
21 Committee Substitute for Proposal 102 by the
22 Committee on General Provisions and Commissioner
23 Henderson. Would you read it, please? There's one
24 amendment on the desk.
25 READING CLERK: Committee Substitute for Proposal
57
1 No. 102, a proposal to revise Article X, Florida
2 Constitution.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Would you read
4 Amendment No. 1 by the Committee on Style and Drafting and
5 Commissioner Mills? We'll read the amendment first.
6 READING CLERK: By the Committee on Style and
7 Drafting, on Page 1, Lines 13 to 18, strike all of said
8 lines and insert lengthy amendment.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Who speaks for --
10 Commissioner Barnett speaking for Style and Drafting moves
11 the amendment. You are recognized on the amendment,
12 Commissioner Barnett.
13 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let
14 me explain the changes in the amendment. Although this
15 proposal passed our last meeting, some concerns were
16 raised about language that Style and Drafting had actually
17 inserted into the original proposal. And that language
18 had consequences that no one expected or intended, but
19 specifically language that said -- that's in the current
20 proposal, no interest in real property.
21 We were concerned that an interest in real property
22 is much broader than the fee simple interest and includes
23 things such as easements, rights-of-way, mineral
24 interests. And we felt that was not the intent of the
25 proposer, and they confirmed that. So you will see that
58
1 this substitute from Style and Drafting -- this amendment
2 from Style and Drafting talks about the fee interest in
3 real property.
4 Also, the language that Style and Drafting had sent
5 to you before inserted into the proposal lands acquired
6 for conservation purposes or held for conservation
7 purposes. And there was a concern about how that
8 designation and how the characterization of something that
9 may have initially been acquired for purposes unrelated to
10 conservation became held for conservation purposes, and
11 then ultimately a concern about the disposition section.
12 So the amendment that you have before you addresses
13 each of those issues. It is our understanding that this
14 amendment more accurately reflects the intent of the
15 proposers that lands that are acquired by the state for
16 conservation purposes may be disposed of at a time when
17 they are no longer needed for those purposes by a
18 two-thirds' vote of the governing entity that has title to
19 the land.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I neglected to ask
21 for five hands. And I assume since there were six members
22 of Style and Drafting, we had five hands. Show me five
23 hands so that we can proceed. Okay, we are now proper.
24 Thank you for reminding me of that. Commissioner Langley,
25 you are recognized.
59
1 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: If Commissioner Barnett will
2 take the floor and answer a few questions.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She does.
4 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: First, can the trustees
5 currently dispose of this land?
6 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Not all of this land is
7 necessarily land that would be owned by the trustees, it
8 could be owned by various governmental entities. I think
9 there's a question -- the answer is yes. I think one of
10 the questions comes, and perhaps Commissioner Henderson is
11 a better person to address this, comes from trading lands,
12 where you may want to trade lands, as opposed to an
13 outright sale or you have a large parcel of land and you
14 want to carve out an out-parcel that's no longer needed
15 for conservation purposes and dispose of that.
16 This is distinguishable from, and I think it's
17 important to make this note, this does not deal with
18 sovereign lands. Sovereign lands are covered in another
19 section of the Constitution and are subject to the public
20 trust doctrine. But this is lands other than sovereign
21 lands that are held for conservation purposes.
22 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: All right. If I wanted to
23 make it easier to transfer some of this land for other
24 purposes, public or private, that aren't needed for
25 conservation, would I be for or against this amendment?
60
1 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I think you would be for this
2 amendment.
3 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Under this rewording on your
4 amendment, as I read it, you could actually lease land
5 under that as well; is that not right? You could lease a
6 portion of the land, like you could lease it to a school
7 board or you could lease it to a county commission?
8 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: The answer is probably yes.
9 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I'm trying to get some intent.
10 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: The answer is probably yes.
11 It deals with managing and disposition. And if
12 disposition includes leasing, yes.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
14 Sundberg.
15 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: For a question. Would you
16 yield, please --
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett yields.
18 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: -- Commissioner Barnett?
19 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: This is not my proposal. I
20 like it, but --
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She's going to quit yielding here
22 in a minute.
23 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I'll leave that one alone.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Good idea.
25 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Barnett, can you
61
1 tell me, and perhaps you explained it but I missed it, why
2 did we reduce the quality of the estate or increase it to
3 only a fee interest? Because the state can have easements
4 and other lesser than a fee. Why was that eliminated? In
5 the original proposal it says, you know, it dealt with any
6 interest in real property owned by the state for
7 conservation purposes. This is limited just to fee, why
8 is that?
9 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I will make an attempt to
10 answer that, and then Commissioner Henderson may want to
11 expand on it. Because of the concern about the burden
12 that may place on the state that other mineral interests,
13 easements, rights-of-ways, other things, the burden of
14 having a supermajority vote to dispose of that might be
15 too much. That what they were really looking at were fee
16 interests in the property and the ability, frankly, to
17 dispose of what may become surplus lands at some point in
18 time when they were no longer needed for conservation
19 purposes, either through the sale or trade of those lands.
20 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: What does the quality of the
21 estate have to do with the ability to dispose of it? You
22 know, it's not uncommon to have a term of years, very long
23 term, 99 years, which is tantamount to a fee interest. I
24 don't understand why that affects the ability to dispose
25 of it, whether it's for a term of years or what have you.
62
1 Perhaps Commissioner Henderson could explain it.
2 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I'll let him try. I don't
3 think the intent was ever to deal with anything other than
4 fee simple interest and the related management, cost, and
5 burden on the state when those lands were no longer needed
6 for conservation purposes, the cost of management and then
7 to be able to ease the disposal of those lands.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Ready to go on the
9 amendment. Everybody understand the amendment and ready
10 to vote on the amendment? Open the machine and let's cast
11 your vote.
12 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce the
14 vote.
15 READING CLERK: Thirty-four yeas, 1 nay,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. As amended, we are on
18 the proposal now, No. 102, as amended. This is a 22-vote
19 vote. Open the machine and let's vote.
20 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce the
22 vote.
23 READING CLERK: Thirty-one yeas, 5 nays,
24 Mr. Chairman.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you sent this to the
63
1 ballot. We'll now move to Proposal No. 135 by
2 Commissioner Henderson. Would you read it please and
3 there's an amendment on the table by Style and Drafting.
4 READING CLERK: Proposal No. 135, a proposal to
5 revise Article VII, Section 3, Florida Constitution.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This one passed
7 before but without 22 votes. I need five hands to proceed
8 to hear the amendment. I see five hands.
9 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, excuse me,
10 this one has passed unanimously every time that it's come
11 before us.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'm sorry, I was looking at the
13 wrong one. I didn't mean to slight you there,
14 Commissioner Henderson. It still takes five hands. All
15 right.
16 For Style and Drafting, Commissioner Mills, who
17 yields to Commissioner Lowndes of the committee to offer.
18 Would you read, please, the proposal first? Have we read
19 it? Read the amendment, please.
20 READING CLERK: By the Committee on Style and
21 Drafting, on Page 3, Lines 9 to 12, strike all of said
22 lines and insert "a county or municipality may be
23 authorized by general law to grant ad valorem tax
24 exemptions for real property used for conservation
25 purposes as defined by general law."
64
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. On the amendment,
2 Commissioner Lowndes for Style and Drafting.
3 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The
4 Style and Drafting amendment does not change and is not
5 intended to change the substance of the proposal. It is
6 simply a simplification of the language. And it simply
7 eliminates some unnecessary and somewhat redundant words.
8 It makes clearer, in the view of the Style and Drafting
9 Committee, the intent of the proposal. I would be happy
10 to answer any questions that anybody has about it.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any questions on the
12 amendment? All in favor of the amendment, say aye;
13 opposed?
14 (Verbal vote taken.)
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment carries. We are
16 now on the proposal. Are you ready to vote on the
17 proposal? Unlock the machine and let's vote.
18 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Everybody voted? Lock the
20 machine and announce the vote.
21 READING CLERK: Thirty-five yeas, zero nays,
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you have adopted
24 No. 135 as amended.
25 We'll now move to Proposal No. 2 by Commissioner
65
1 Sundberg, Commissioner Smith. I need five hands to
2 reconsider, to go forward with it. Are there five hands?
3 I beg your pardon?
4 COMMISSIONER SMITH: May I -- I guess it is a
5 personal privilege.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have a personal privilege.
7 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First
8 of all, let me thank the members of the commission for
9 their support of Proposal 2. And I think basically their
10 support has evidenced really a commitment of the members
11 of this commission to the spirit of what we are about as a
12 people, and that is to ensure equal opportunity for all.
13 Let me thank my good friend and right-hand man,
14 Commissioner Sundberg, for his committed floor management
15 of Proposal 2, and his courageous standing up for the
16 proposition of equal opportunity. I would also like to
17 thank the members of the Declaration of Rights Committee
18 for their favorable recommendation.
19 And as you know, the first time this matter came up,
20 we had 23 votes in favor. The last time it came up we had
21 21 votes, and at least three members, who were excused
22 absences, were prepared to support it, including my good
23 friend Commissioner Anthony who was on his honeymoon at
24 the time.
25 Based upon personal commitments that I have received,
66
1 if they hold true, and they have always held true, we have
2 22 votes to move this forward today. However, based upon
3 consultation with my friends in the civil rights community
4 throughout the nation and in the state of Florida, and
5 particularly the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights in
6 Washington, D.C., the Washington bureau of the National
7 Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the
8 Florida state chapter of the NAACP, I'm going to request
9 that Commissioner Sundberg withdraw this proposal at this
10 time.
11 While we believe that it's always appropriate to try
12 to advance the cause of equal opportunity, we feel that
13 with regard to this proposal being placed in this
14 Constitution at this particular time, that the timing is
15 not appropriate for us to ensure that the proposal will in
16 fact be appropriately explained to the people of the state
17 of Florida, and that we'll be able to galvanize the kind
18 of financial support that we need to ensure that we do not
19 regress from the present status.
20 And let me just say, we did a survey of the nation,
21 Florida has some of the best equal opportunity proposals
22 in its university system. And based upon the governmental
23 allocation of funds, most of which are mandated by the
24 government, federal government, one in particular dealing
25 with transportation, which you were handed a newspaper
67
1 article about, where the United States Senate just
2 rebuffed an action to regress from the equal opportunity
3 proposals throughout the states where monies are sent for
4 transportation.
5 And we would like to, at this time, and I have
6 already spoken to Commissioner Sundberg and he is
7 reluctantly in agreement with this, but I just wanted to
8 make sure I stated for the record and I wanted to make
9 sure that I commended each of you for your past support
10 for the concept of equal opportunity.
11 I'm very confident that we will face this issue in
12 the not too distant future and I'm sure that I will be on
13 the front lines of the battleground. And those of you who
14 oppose it, I look forward to discussing this with you
15 probably in the year 2000, as this issue will definitely
16 be one that's confronted by the people of the state of
17 Florida. Thank you very much.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's not necessary to withdraw
19 it. If it doesn't get five hands, it's no longer
20 available for consideration.
21 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Mr. Chairman, may I be heard?
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: For what purpose?
23 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: To explain why I will not
24 urge five members of this group to bring this up for
25 consideration, if I may.
68
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, try to make it short, we
2 have got a long day.
3 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: With great reluctance, but
4 even greater deference to H.T. Smith, I urge you not to
5 bring this matter further before this body.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That was a great speech. Do we
7 have five hands? If not, the matter is no longer
8 available for consideration.
9 We now move to Proposal No. 5 by Commissioner Planas.
10 Do I see five hands? If not, it will be referred to Style
11 and Drafting for grouping and put on the ballot.
12 Proposal No. 11 by Commissioner Freidin. Do I see
13 five hands? There are five hands. All right. Would you
14 read No. 11, please?
15 READING CLERK: Proposal No. 11, a proposal to revise
16 Article I, Section 2, Florida Constitution.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Freidin,
18 you are recognized on the Proposal No. 11.
19 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Lest there be any confusion
20 about what we are talking about here, this is the proposal
21 that adds the words "female and male alike" after the
22 words "all natural persons" in Article I, Section 2, of
23 our Constitution.
24 Commissioners, I wish that I had the eloquence of
25 Commissioner Smith because I wish that there were
69
1 something more I could do to urge upon you than I have
2 already done to urge upon you the passage of this
3 proposal. As the commissioner said, I know that each and
4 every one of us is absolutely committed to doing what is
5 right for the people of Florida. And I submit to you that
6 passage of this proposal and placing it on the ballot is
7 right for all of the people of Florida.
8 It has been 150 years that women in our country have
9 been trying to attain equality. And while we, as we have
10 discussed in the past, we have attained equality in many,
11 many ways, we have not attained equality in our Florida
12 Constitution. The Constitution -- the purpose of a
13 Constitution is to set out the basic ideals and the basic
14 principles and the basic protections that should be
15 afforded to all of our people.
16 It is inexcusable that our Constitution in 1998 does
17 not mention women. It is inexcusable that other classes
18 of people are mentioned in our Constitution with specific
19 protections and that women, more than 50 percent of our
20 population, are not mentioned. It is difficult for me to
21 believe, and it is difficult for many people to believe
22 how there would possibly be a question or problem with
23 adding these words into the Constitution.
24 I urge you to join with the thousands and thousands,
25 and millions, actually, of women in this state who want to
70
1 see equality for women embedded in our Constitution.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Further debate. Commissioner
3 Langley, you are recognized.
4 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You
5 know, when you have an issue and the proponents won't tell
6 you whether or not this does anything, either it does make
7 the law different or it doesn't change anything. And to
8 be very simple in logic, if it doesn't do anything, why do
9 it?
10 If it does make changes, i.e., homosexual marriages,
11 homosexual adoptions, no more alimony maybe, you know, no
12 more responsibility for spouses, nobody says, yes, that
13 will or no, that won't. So either you are going to vote
14 to do nothing -- and again, I always thought that all
15 natural persons included male and female -- either you are
16 going to do nothing by adding it or either you are going
17 to open Pandora's box as to who knows what it does.
18 And the worst example I know is when I sat here in
19 good faith in 1980-something and voted for the right of
20 privacy to be put in our Constitution, never, never would
21 I have dreamed that the Supreme Court would say that gave
22 a teenager the right to have an abortion without parental
23 knowledge or consent.
24 So what can a court do with this? I don't know. And
25 I certainly submit to you the sponsors don't know either,
71
1 or they have a secret agenda that they do know and won't
2 tell you. That is the issue. And with that background, I
3 can't vote for it.
4 (Commissioner Thompson assumes the Chair.)
5 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Further debate? Commissioner
6 Riley.
7 COMMISSIONER RILEY: We don't have a secret agenda,
8 Commissioner Langley. And I think our agenda and
9 certainly my agenda is very open on this issue.
10 In 1918 Alice Paul wrote the Equal Rights Amendment.
11 And it says, if I may, "Equality of rights under the law
12 shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by
13 any state on account of sex." This is not the Equal
14 Rights Amendment in those words, this is a compromise set
15 of words.
16 And I can tell you that it does do something. It
17 says to the thousands and thousands of women in this state
18 that this group is willing to put on the ballot the
19 ability of men and women in this state to choose to put
20 these words in the Constitution and make sure that if
21 there's any question that women do not have equal rights
22 at any point, that this will give strength to the ability
23 to give rights to those women, and to all women.
24 This is Women's History Month, and I can't think of a
25 better thing that we could do in the month of March than
|
