1
1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
2
3
4
5
COMMISSION MEETING
6
7
8
9
DATE: March 23, 1998
10
TIME: Commenced at 9:00 a.m.
11 Concluded at 5:00 p.m.
12 PLACE: The Senate Chamber
The Capitol
13 Tallahassee, Florida
14 REPORTED BY: KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
MONA L. WHIDDON
15 Court Reporters
Division of Administrative Hearings
16 The DeSoto Building
1230 Apalachee Parkway
17 Tallahassee, Florida
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
PAT BARTON
6 ROBERT M. BROCHIN
THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
7 KEN CONNOR
CHRIS CORR
8 SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW
VALERIE EVANS
9 MARILYN EVANS-JONES
BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
10 ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
PAUL HAWKES
11 WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS
12 THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
DICK LANGLEY
13 JOHN F. LOWNDES
STANLEY MARSHALL
14 JACINTA MATHIS
JON LESTER MILLS
15 FRANK MORSANI
ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
16 CARLOS PLANAS (ABSENT)
JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
17 KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
SENATOR JIM SCOTT
18 H. T. SMITH
ALAN C. SUNDBERG
19 JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON
PAUL WEST
20 JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON
STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
21
IRA H. LEESFIELD (ABSENT)
22 LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN (ABSENT)
23
24
25
3
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We could go ahead with the
3 formalities if that is agreeable. Let's go ahead and
4 have our opening and then we'll temporarily recess
5 until Style and Drafting returns to the chamber.
6 Would everybody please check in, please.
7 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
8 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
9 commissioners indicate your presence.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We need everybody to sign in
11 so we can have the opening. We now have a quorum, I
12 think.
13 Madam Secretary, I think -- wait a minute, we
14 have one more signing in. All right. If all
15 unauthorized persons would please leave the chamber.
16 And if you haven't indicated your presence, please do
17 so.
18 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.
19 (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If you would come
21 to order, please. If everybody could take their
22 seats, we will have the opening prayer. We're going
23 to have the opening prayer if everybody could -- would
24 everybody please rise. This morning our opening
25 prayer is given by Reverend Mark Broadhead of
4
1 Fellowship Baptist Church in Tallahassee. Reverend,
2 welcome.
3 REVEREND BROADHEAD: Thank you. Would you join
4 me in prayer, please?
5 Eternal God, we come before you this morning with
6 great expectations for this day. Already there have
7 been meetings, public and private, and conversations
8 that will help shape the course of many people's
9 lives. Already there is a sense of anticipation. You
10 have called these men and women to a special task and
11 grant them your guidance. As discussions and debates
12 go on this day, be present and let your presence be
13 known.
14 We ask that because there are so many needs you
15 will help keep self-interest in check for the good of
16 the greater people. We ask that your grace flow
17 through each person who will be a part of the process.
18 Let your peace be known to all who will be affected by
19 today's decisions. As this day progresses, we pray
20 that you will keep minds alert, tempers in check, and
21 senses of humor alive and fresh. Allow for creativity
22 which is exciting and contagious. For these things we
23 pray to your honor and glory. Amen.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The pledge of allegiance this
25 morning will be led by Laurel McDaniel and Christine
5
1 Kretschman both of Tallahassee. Laurel is the
2 daughter of our Secretary. Would you ladies come and
3 lead us in the pledge.
4 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're going to be
6 in temporary recess until the members of Style and
7 Drafting Committee return to the chamber. Keep the
8 floor secure, please. I would -- before you break
9 out, let me introduce three pages -- other pages that
10 are with us this morning. They are Brandon J. Miller
11 who's in seventh grade from Maitland Middle School.
12 May R. Dewitt who is from the seventh grade in
13 Maitland Middle School. And Yokinta Camille Mathis
14 who's in eighth grade from Hiwassee Christian Academy,
15 would you stand. You may tell from her familiar name
16 that she's the daughter of our commissioner. And
17 Benita Thomas who is also with us this morning. And
18 we're delighted to have you. We'll stand in recess
19 and the chamber will be secure.
20 (Brief recess.)
21 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
22 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
23 commissioners indicate your presence.
24 (Pause.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's see if we could --
6
1 somebody check in the back and around to see if we can
2 get everybody in the chamber. If you haven't
3 registered your presence, please do so. (Pause.)
4 Okay. We're already about 50 minutes late getting
5 started. I wonder if everybody could come on and sign
6 in. We're still missing -- I know they're here, I've
7 seen them.
8 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
9 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
10 commissioners indicate your presence.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If you'll come to
12 order, please. Commissioners, I wonder if you'll take
13 your seats, please. Will everybody take their seats,
14 please. Thank you. Everybody is seated. I wonder if
15 you'll give me your attention for a minute. I'd like
16 to make a few remarks before we start.
17 This has been a great experience and a wonderful
18 experience for all of us. I know it has for me. This
19 group to me has become not only collegial but we've
20 become friends and we've become respectful of each
21 other and we've debated the issues from time to time
22 with great respect for each other and we've done a
23 tremendous job in addressing our problems.
24 I've had help as Chairman from each one of you
25 from time to time. I've had great input from each one
7
1 of you. My task as Chairman was to make this as open
2 a group as possible, to make our work as open as
3 possible, and to address it in the manner in which I
4 believe we have addressed it.
5 Last week we completed what was a monumental
6 task. We reviewed and proposed many proposals.
7 Likewise, I want to tell you that our Committee on
8 Style and Drafting has received these approved
9 proposals and they've been developing groupings for
10 the consideration of the commission. They've worked
11 long and hard. They worked yesterday, they worked
12 this morning starting at 7:00 and they've done a great
13 job and I think we all owe them a word of great
14 thanks.
15 Before we advance to their report, I believe it
16 would be productive for me, as Chairman, to discuss
17 the process with you. I've had several members voice
18 differing opinions relating to the effect of last
19 week's voting. The effect of this week's voting and
20 the effect of adopting or rejecting a grouping
21 recommendation of the committee, Style and Drafting.
22 I think these are valid concerns and should be
23 discussed before we advance to specific proposals.
24 In addition, it's no secret that at least one of
25 the issues, Reapportionment Commission, has received a
8
1 great deal of attention by the press and I would
2 presume by many others. Stories have been written
3 that I don't necessarily agree with discussing things
4 like hardball politics, arm-twisting threats and this
5 sort of thing. I don't put a great deal of stock in
6 this because I know the people here and I know the
7 people that might be accused of doing such a thing and
8 I would not accept that as an accurate description.
9 I'm sure we've had many people express their
10 concerns one way or the other on this issue. I know I
11 have. And let's prove that this business about how
12 we're affected by outside influences at the last
13 minute after all these votes is wrong.
14 I think we can arise above politics. We can
15 arise above, as we have many times, other
16 considerations, maybe some of our own personal
17 connections that cause us concerns from time to time.
18 And let's show the merits of this process in an open,
19 civil, and democratic manner and prove that this
20 commission continues to stand for what is right, not
21 what is wrong with or for government.
22 I want to add to that that I kind of feel like
23 our group that we've become sort of a family. And
24 we've been a pretty functional family for the most
25 part. And it's not good for us to even consider
9
1 becoming a dysfunctional family at this late date and
2 I don't believe that we will.
3 But like in every family, mine, yours, and
4 everybody else's there are great disagreements from
5 time to time. And when the majority rules then we all
6 accept it and we go our way and we still are family
7 when we finish.
8 And I know that some siblings that we have here
9 may have really taken issue with some of the votes
10 that we had as a majority as 22 votes and whatever.
11 And for every one there is another one that all of us
12 in some form or fashion as siblings lost the support
13 of our other siblings. So as brothers and sisters
14 here working together as a family, I hope today that
15 we can proceed in that spirit and I know that we will.
16 And I commend to you the conduct and the way that we
17 have done this.
18 Relating to the process, there are two main
19 issues that have been raised with me. The first issue
20 relates to the effect of our votes last week. I
21 believe that we took our votes last Tuesday,
22 March 17th, we took final votes on individual
23 proposals. In short, we sent to Style and Drafting a
24 final list or proposal that this commission voted they
25 wanted to put on the ballot. The only question
10
1 remaining is the form of these proposals that they
2 would appear on the ballot, grouped or individual.
3 To be thorough and fair, however, I asked
4 Commissioner Barkdull to review our adopted rules,
5 review the February 24th, 1998 report of the committee
6 and calendar and review all the transcripts of our
7 proceedings that might relate to this issue. He
8 prepared a memorandum summarizing the salient points
9 of the transcript. And I believe that it supports the
10 desire of the commission to narrow issues and to take
11 final votes at the meeting last Tuesday which we did.
12 Based on that review, it appears that these
13 individual proposals have been ratified by the
14 commission and for those members who wish to defeat a
15 proposal now, even now, two options exist. One, make
16 a motion to reconsider a proposal. My -- I think the
17 rules provide, I can't find anything otherwise, that
18 on a motion to reconsider it would have to be made by
19 a person that voted with the prevailing side and it
20 would require a majority vote for the commission to
21 reconsider it. And if that's the case, we would then
22 reconsider. You may offer an amendment. And one
23 other way that you could do it would be offer an
24 amendment to just get rid of the proposal and that, of
25 course, would take 22 affirmative votes to do that.
11
1 The second issue raised relates to the groupings
2 and the effect of groupings not receiving 22 votes as
3 recommended by -- on the matter recommended by the
4 committee. I requested Commissioner Barkdull review
5 our rules on this matter. At the time we adopted Rule
6 5, it's interesting to note that the exact issue was
7 discussed by this commission. Specifically it was
8 determined that if the recommended groupings are not
9 adopted by 22 votes, the individual proposals would go
10 on the ballot as separate proposals and/or would be
11 available for subsequent groupings which we can still
12 do.
13 Like the discussion last July, I would find that
14 recommended groupings are recommendations. If
15 ratified by 22 votes, that is the grouping. In the
16 alternative, if defeated, the groupings fall apart.
17 And after the groupings fall apart, the individual
18 proposals then are placed on the ballot on a less
19 group with something else by 22 votes in some other
20 manner.
21 Relating to ballot language and title, according
22 to Rule 5.42, it's the obligation of the Committee on
23 Style and Drafting to prepare ballot language. Style
24 and Drafting Committee has purposely delayed
25 developing some language, I understand, it may not be
12
1 altogether true, but it may be. Since that time the
2 committee's carefully reviewed applicable case law and
3 prepared ballot language and ballot titles. That's
4 what they were doing this morning.
5 I believe that the commission can adopt and amend
6 the ballot language by a simple majority vote. Like
7 earlier votes, this language was not available to them
8 until today and it only seems fair to allow
9 commissioners, by a simple majority vote, to amend
10 ballot language. This ruling would be consistent with
11 our treatment of amendment to proposals when they were
12 first considered by the commission.
13 Everything that they're sending back to us has
14 been voted on at least three times favorably and
15 received 22 votes most of the time and certainly last
16 time. And therefore, we have voted three to five
17 times on these amendments. I think it's unreasonable
18 to expect our family to stay a family if we just keep
19 voting as long as one member or two members or less
20 than a majority want to keep voting.
21 Therefore, I suggest that we proceed in the
22 manner that I've discussed. And I would hope that
23 that would meet with the approval of the commission
24 and I would hope that we can proceed and proceed in a
25 manner which I've outlined to you.
13
1 Commissioner Morsani.
2 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: I rise this morning with a
3 heavy heart. Last week I almost resigned from this
4 commission and I thought about it and I decided late
5 in the day last Tuesday not to do so. I did not, nor
6 many people in this room, campaign for this position.
7 I received a call about 8:00 one night from President
8 Jennings asking me if I would be on the Constitution
9 Revision Commission. I said, I don't know anything
10 about the Constitution, I'll have to think about it.
11 She said, I would encourage you to come on. So I
12 thought about it and I decided to do so.
13 Ladies and gentlemen, Commissioners, I had never
14 met Toni Jennings, I had never given a dime to one of
15 her campaigns. I have never written her a letter
16 about supporting of any piece of legislation. And I
17 will say to this day, President Jennings has never
18 asked me to vote one way or the other on any issue
19 since June of last year.
20 You know, in the automobile business we have
21 collision repair shops. Many years ago when I started
22 the first one, and a lot of people come in and you
23 have your estimate and they want you to cover their
24 deductible. So I instructed my body shop manager at
25 that time, and I was a service manager in 1962 in Fort
14
1 Lauderdale, Florida. I said when a person wants you
2 to cover their deductible, you say, Sir or Ma'am, if a
3 man will steal for you he'll steal from you. And if
4 you're going to ask me to steal for you, then you
5 automatically think I'm going to steal from you. We
6 don't run our business that way.
7 I think there is a correlation between politics
8 and business. Ms. Marilyn Evans-Jones said that there
9 would be less politics -- taking politics out of the
10 reapportionment by a commission. Whether I'm for it
11 or not is not the issue. The issue is, we didn't
12 take, unfortunately, politics out of this commission.
13 A week ago last Tuesday, I thought we had.
14 But as I started listening to whispers last
15 Tuesday about what had been going on, no one talked to
16 me, no one called me, and that's good, I'm glad no one
17 did because I probably wouldn't have talked to them
18 anyway because I'm not easily swayed by anybody.
19 That's good or bad depending on how you assess me as
20 an individual and my value system.
21 You know, I think it was either Disraeli, it
22 could Churchill. One of the back benchers came to
23 Disraeli and said they were going to change their
24 party and he said to them, You change your party for
25 principles or principles for party.
15
1 I think what we've done, unfortunately, in the
2 last ten days is change our principles and I'm very,
3 very disturbed about that. I thought for ten months
4 we had not allowed this to happen in this body. And
5 as an automobile mechanic, I'm kind of disappointed
6 because that's not how I run my business and haven't
7 for over 30 years.
8 So I think we have, numerous times during these
9 debates, we have said the public didn't have
10 confidence in the legislators because of their
11 walking -- their straddling the fences. Ladies and
12 gentlemen, I think that they can accuse us of the same
13 thing, of being political in this process in the last
14 ten days and I'm extremely disturbed. I don't think
15 that was our mission.
16 I thought our mission was to do what was right
17 for the 15 million people in this great state. So to
18 paraphrase, President Kennedy when he said, Not what
19 my country can do for me, but what I can do for my
20 country. I think we are not doing what's in the best
21 interest on some of these issues for our state of
22 Florida and I'm disturbed. I had to tell you. I
23 apologize for taking your time but that's not what
24 we're about. That's not right. And we're doing the
25 wrong thing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you, Commissioner
2 Morsani. Commissioner Scott.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I personally agree with what
4 Commissioner Morsani has said. And what I want to
5 focus back on is where we started and the rules that
6 we had. And so far in Rule 5, if you look at it, the
7 Style and Drafting Committee shall review all
8 proposals receiving approval of a majority of the
9 commission and shall prepare recommended ballot
10 language.
11 Well we changed majority to mean receiving 22
12 votes because we were trying to eliminate some
13 proposals. Style and Drafting may recommend
14 amendments and may recommend the groupings. A
15 proposal on consideration -- and this has not been
16 changed -- after having been disposed of, may be
17 amended or grouped by a vote of at least 22 members of
18 the commission, that's fine. That's 5.3 following
19 what the Chairman said. And I do appreciate the tone
20 and the tenor of his remarks.
21 But 5.4 says final adoption of a proposal shall
22 require a vote of at least 22 members. Now, let me
23 try to get this in some perspective for you. There is
24 a statute, and I know you've all heard about it, we've
25 been dealing with it that says, for example, there has
17
1 to be 75 words in the ballot summary and that there
2 has to be a title.
3 Now, that statute also says that the wording of
4 the substance of the amendment and the ballot title to
5 appear shall be embodied, shall be embodied, in the
6 joint resolution which would be in the Legislature or
7 in the Constitutional Revision Commission proposal.
8 So therefore, acting under that, Style and Drafting
9 has come to you and will present to you proposals that
10 have in them, embodied in them, and there's been
11 several court cases interpreting this, the ballot
12 summary and the title.
13 And I submit to you in a sense of where we were,
14 the change we made that was made by several of us on
15 the Rules Committee in the back, in no time did
16 anybody, and I'm talking fairness now, we're going to
17 have to debate this for a long time. No one
18 anticipated that we were abolishing 5.4 which says
19 final approval of the proposal which will have in it
20 all this would require 22 votes.
21 Now, that aside, several members I know on many
22 of these proposals, could be the firearms, could be
23 the primary -- open primary or whatever appropriate
24 words to describe that. I think people thought
25 whether it's grouped or not grouped, whether it's
18
1 grouped or not grouped, they would have a final vote
2 on it.
3 Now, let me tell you the effect of what is -- of
4 Judge Barkdull's letter. We have, or we may have,
5 conflicting proposals, directly conflicting proposals.
6 And under his letter, we might have grouped them.
7 Let's take the elections package. We might have
8 grouped them. If we separate them and we take the
9 position that both of them -- because they were
10 previously single proposals approved -- go to the
11 ballot, we are then not really doing justice to our
12 final work product.
13 So I would urge the members to reflect on this.
14 I would urge the Chair, prior to making some ruling on
15 it, that it be explored fully because otherwise I know
16 people who voted for. I know one member at least who
17 voted for, and this is not the apportionment, that
18 thought they were voting for it but when it was
19 finally back before them they would have a chance to
20 vote on it because a grouping is one, really, when you
21 think about it. The decision to group or not to
22 group.
23 But I just want to tell you that this, whatever
24 we do here is going to be challenged as things have
25 been challenged so far. In one of the subjects we're
19
1 dealing with, the previous initiative proposal, was
2 thrown off the ballot.
3 Another instance in this case, back in '82, a
4 legislative proposal was thrown off the ballot because
5 the ballot language in summary was not appropriate,
6 both of those cases. One was the Marine Fisheries'
7 issue. I think the other was lobbyists and financial
8 disclosure. So this is not just a simple issue.
9 That's not to mention the question of the
10 fairness, regardless of the issue, of having final --
11 there's not 22 votes, let's say we find out we made a
12 big mistake and now two-thirds or whatever. Whatever
13 number. I just think it's not the way to -- for us to
14 proceed. And I agree with the statement of the
15 family. And, Commissioner Morsani, I thought about
16 resigning, and not just last week, several times I
17 thought about it. And one of the reasons I didn't was
18 because of the people on here and the people that I've
19 gotten to know and some of whom I've known and
20 respected for years.
21 But I would urge you in that sense to consider
22 whether you really want to have something that may not
23 enjoy a support of 22 members, recognizing that we
24 have to put on a proposal that has to embody this
25 ballot language which we just have gotten recently,
20
1 regardless of the reasons, in the last two or three
2 days over the weekend that you want to think carefully
3 about going forward without requiring that -- the
4 final vote of 22 votes. So since we're discussing
5 this, and I'm glad you are, Mr. Chairman, in
6 connection with all the issues, I just wanted to make
7 those points because we've been thinking about it for
8 some time.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Question, Commissioner Scott?
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Commissioners, your
11 concern, as you expressed, the vote that it would take
12 to establish the ballot language, is that the point
13 you were trying to get at?
14 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: No, Commissioner Barkdull.
15 What I'm getting at is the ballot language, the ballot
16 title and the ballot language has to be embodied in
17 the Constitutional Revision Commission proposal and
18 that's what we've tried to do and it's --
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: What I'm getting to --
20 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I'm not finished. So my
21 point is that under our rules the final vote is when
22 that's done and it's right in sequence in Rule 5.5.
23 There's .1, .2 that the Chairman referred to and .5.
24 And the reason for that is that's what we have to do.
25 And if we don't do that, I want to urge you that we're
21
1 subjecting every proposal, everything we've done, and
2 a lot of good things, to a significant problem.
3 And it's unnecessary and it's done in an effort,
4 I believe, not to simplify but to affect some
5 proposals. And I don't think that's right. I think
6 it's going to be, perhaps, illegal. It's going to be
7 up to the courts or whoever. But it is not -- I mean,
8 I think that when we get this and we agree on the
9 ballot language and the proposal you're going to have
10 to have a final vote. That's what this is about and
11 that's the point I was trying to make.
12 And you can look at the statute, it's 101.161,
13 Commissioner Smith, and others, whoever wants to take
14 a look at it. It's very clear. And I think that it's
15 basically -- each one of these is now. Whether it's
16 by itself, whether it's a grouping or not, it's now a
17 proposal with the ballot language embodied in it and I
18 think it's going to require the approval of this
19 commission as it goes forward. You can't just say,
20 Well, we're going to stick this on it and stick that
21 on it but yet you can't revote any of it because that
22 can be critical to the whole issue.
23 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, Commissioner Scott,
24 would you continue to yield for something? I agree
25 with you that we have ballot language to be
22
1 considered. But what concerns me is, until we know
2 what the groupings are, how can the Style and Drafting
3 Committee come back to the commission with any ballot
4 language because until they know what's going to be in
5 the groups, they can't prepare the ballot language?
6 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Judge Barkdull, that is not
7 what we've been operating on and we have prepared the
8 ballot language and that's what we've been doing on
9 Sundays and meeting -- some meetings late at night and
10 whatever and all day, most of the day yesterday,
11 that's what we've been doing.
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, Commissioner Scott,
13 if something is pulled out of the grouping then
14 certainly that's going to impact the proposed ballot
15 language.
16 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: That's right and then what
17 would happen is we would fix it again and pass it
18 again just like we do every legislative measure,
19 every --
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'm not disagreeing with
21 you. I just wanted to point out that when we break up
22 a grouping that's been recommended by Style and
23 Drafting and you-all have worked and put the ballot
24 language together, if there is something pulled out of
25 a grouping, obviously it's going to have to be
23
1 reconsidered by the Style and Drafting Committee for
2 ballot language.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Absolutely. And that could
4 happen today and we would go resubmit but it would
5 still come back to you as a proposal. And maybe we
6 got six things in the elections and we take three of
7 them out and put them in another, but it still has to
8 be finally voted. Otherwise, what you would be doing
9 is just totally giving to six of us, and I don't want
10 it, I'm going to tell you, the authority to do ballot
11 language that could mess up everything we have and
12 that's not right. The commission has to vote on the
13 proposal with the ballot language. That's my point
14 and that's what the statute requires.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I think we're on
16 different pages.
17 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Then fine.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley and then
19 Commissioner Wetherington is next.
20 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Thank you. First, I'd
21 like to thank Style and Drafting for the many, many
22 hours that they've put into this. And secondly, I'd
23 like to thank the Chairman for not putting me on that
24 committee. Does everybody have their blue manual?
25 Their little blue manual that has the rules in it?
24
1 I'd like to lead you through the rules. This is a
2 family, if you want to call it that, or it's supposed
3 to be a level playing field and all those good things,
4 those cliches that we use.
5 But we're also bound by the rules that we adopted
6 and that we've amended as we've gone along and I would
7 like to take you through the rules briefly to
8 substantiate my position of where we are and the
9 position that everything that goes on that ballot must
10 have had 22 affirmative votes before it goes on there.
11 First, point one. Where are the proposals now?
12 Who knows the answer to that one? The proposals now
13 are in Style and Drafting Committee. Anybody
14 disagree? If they are in Style and Drafting Committee
15 and we adjourn today, what happens to the proposals?
16 Nothing. They die in committee. So if they are in
17 committee, how do they get to be a final product of
18 the body? They have to be presented as is done by
19 Style and Drafting in this proposal before you and
20 they have to be voted out by this commission. And by
21 our rules, they have to be voted out by 22 positive
22 votes.
23 If you look at -- and by the way, letters written
24 by the Rules Chairman, in all deference, are not
25 rules, they are letters written by the rules chairman.
25
1 And as a matter of fact, the Rules Committee has never
2 met nor asked to meet to consider any of these things.
3 These have been ex parte from the rules between the
4 Chairman and the rules chairman.
5 But anyway if you look at the letter from
6 March 13th which I think accurately capsulize what we
7 voted on February 24th, Paragraph 3 of that letter,
8 Proposals receiving 22 votes are forwarded to the
9 Style and Drafting Committee. That's where they are
10 going. That's where they are.
11 Paragraph 5, Proposals receiving 22 or more votes
12 in late February will be referred to the Style and
13 Drafting Committee, that's where these proposals are.
14 Though they cannot, by the very fact that they are
15 lodged in committee have been finally voted upon.
16 Okay, let's go on.
17 Under Rule 5.4. A proposal on consideration,
18 Paragraph 3 -- that's on Page 17 of your blue
19 manual -- after having been disposed of by Style and
20 Drafting Committee, none of these yet have been
21 disposed of. Some of them will not be disposed of
22 after we get through today because they have to go
23 back to either change ballot language or maybe to
24 regroup, so they are still not disposed of. And if
25 they are not disposed of, they cannot have been
26
1 finally voted upon.
2 Paragraph 5 -- pardon me, Paragraph 4, which
3 Senator Scott read, requires for a final adoption,
4 shall require 22 votes. Remember also Rule 212
5 requires that the Style and Drafting Committee shall
6 report from its committee, which they have done, and
7 recommend to the body any amendments or groupings or
8 what else. So again, the point is they are still in
9 Style and Drafting Committee.
10 Another thing that's very important,
11 Mr. Chairman. In the discussion, part of the
12 transcript that wasn't read was when you were asked in
13 the discussion with Senator Scott when you said he was
14 asking you about the voting and you said, That's
15 correct, any grouping will require 22 votes. The
16 proposals and the groupings will all require the same
17 vote, 22 votes.
18 Now, Mr. Chairman, if you've stated -- and I
19 guess you knew that that was a final vote on many of
20 these proposals -- I very reluctantly remind you to
21 read Rule 1.7 on Page 8 which says, The Chairman shall
22 vote on final passage of all proposals. Well the
23 Chairman did not vote on 21 out of 29 of these
24 proposals that were passed last week. So surely,
25 Mr. Chairman, you did not think that was a final vote
27
1 on those either. There is another thing to consider.
2 A lot of votes, some of these things you care
3 about, some of them you don't care a lot about and
4 some of them you just assume go away, there is no
5 question about it. But as we narrow down the issues
6 that are going to be put on this ballot for the
7 15 million people of the state of Florida to look at,
8 aren't some of you thinking, You know, that one is all
9 right. But if I had to vote for just five, I wouldn't
10 vote for that one. But how are we going to know how
11 many proposals are going to be available until we know
12 how many come out of Style and Drafting, how they're
13 grouped and all the other things about them that you
14 can narrow down the number of these that you would
15 actually support? We don't know yet.
16 Right now we have ten and I don't agree with some
17 of the groupings. I don't agree with putting
18 religious freedom in with all these controversial
19 things that are in that same grouping. I don't agree
20 with putting some of the very highly contradictory
21 crossover primary elections nonpartisan school boards
22 in with ballot access and voter age of 18. I mean,
23 you're going to kill some good ones for the bad ones
24 and vice versa. So until you see all those, you
25 really don't know which final proposals you may want
28
1 to vote on.
2 But again in summary, Mr. Chairman, by your
3 voting or lack thereof I think it was obvious that
4 last week was not the final vote and that would be my
5 suggestion to the Chair.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Wetherington.
7 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: Well, I would like to
8 say that I have to respectfully disagree with
9 Commissioner Morsani who I think is a wonderful man, a
10 man of abundant goodwill, but I don't believe that any
11 member of this commission, that I'm aware of, has done
12 anything but take the higher road with respect to our
13 responsibilities.
14 There may be some people outside of this
15 commission that have called people and tried to put
16 pressure on members of the commission. I've heard of
17 some of that. And nobody has called me but I've heard
18 they called some other people and I'm sure they have
19 because a lot of people may have a lot at stake here
20 today. But I don't think that that reflects the
21 conduct of any member of the commission.
22 Now, it's very clear that there are still people
23 that still oppose some of those proposals and that
24 always raises a problem as to how long or if we're
25 ever going to get to a final vote. But nonetheless,
29
1 they are making parliamentary objections and rules
2 objections, which they have a right to make. And if
3 they are right, they should prevail on them because we
4 have to be bound by the rules. They obviously feel as
5 strongly on some of these proposals as I do.
6 If I've lost something, I'm not crying over it.
7 There's been some ones that I've had defeated. Nobody
8 has heard me cry over them and you've never heard me
9 keep pushing them on and on again. I don't believe in
10 doing that. I mean, once it's voted on, as far as I'm
11 concerned, if I've lost, I lost, although I may feel
12 strongly for it.
13 But my overall comment really is that we need to
14 do what is correct under the rules and I -- my feeling
15 is that everyone that I know on this commission has
16 acted in a -- basically an exemplary fashion. They
17 may have pushed hard for things they believe in, but
18 then again, I think people should. And I would like
19 to say that I'm very proud and privileged to be a
20 member of the commission. I think it has the same
21 high standards and ideals that it had when I began
22 with. I've heard some disturbing things but not by
23 members of the commission, by people outside, and
24 there is always going to be some of that. So I'm
25 simply reaffirming my belief in the commission.
30
1 And if it takes a little longer to get to the
2 right result on these issues, we take a little longer
3 and wherever it leads us, we go. I'm still thinking
4 about the things that have been said and we're looking
5 at the statutes, and I'm satisfied in the end we will
6 follow the rules and we will vote our consciences.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you. Commissioner
8 Hawkes.
9 COMMISSIONER HAWKES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
10 think it's fair to say that throughout this process
11 when we have used the term "grouping," we were
12 referring to exactly what and how it would appear on
13 the ballot and we consistently from the very
14 beginning, from the very first time we meant, even
15 before we started the public hearing process, to the
16 very first time we met when we started the debate in
17 chambers before the committee process and even when we
18 talked about trying to narrow it down so that Style
19 and Drafting wouldn't have to look at so many
20 proposals that probably had no chance to succeed.
21 When we refer to "grouping," we're referring to
22 what and how it would actually finally appear on the
23 ballot. And I would submit that a grouping of one is,
24 in fact, a grouping. Should the firearm proposal be
25 on the ballot all by itself? Well, if we take Style
31
1 and Drafting's position on that and we vote 22, then
2 it is.
3 If we don't believe that it ought to be on the
4 ballot by itself then we end up taking Style and
5 Drafting's position and it is. So we really have no
6 say on that particular item if, in fact, we don't
7 define grouping in a realistic way that it refers to
8 how items will appear on the ballot and what exactly
9 will appear on the ballot. And if we don't get 22
10 votes on how and what appears on the ballot, then that
11 item doesn't appear on the ballot. And I think that
12 we have all understood that to be the rule from the
13 very beginning of this process and we're not stuck on
14 having 36 different ballot questions because we all
15 believe that the groupings ought to be a little bit
16 different or something along those lines.
17 We agree with the product that comes out of here
18 so that we're united to the public and we feel that we
19 have done what the consensus and that is the
20 betterment of Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor.
22 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 Someone once said that one man's larceny is just
24 another man's redistributing of the wealth. In other
25 words, it's all a matter of perspective. And I would
32
1 confess that when you folks voted against my proposals
2 I've often felt you've been dealing politically. And
3 when you've supported them, I felt generally that you
4 were doing the principle thing.
5 And I would just say, Commissioner Morsani, with
6 reference to your comment, that it's my intention to
7 credit every member of this commission with ultimate
8 good faith. And the fact that my proposal may be
9 being gored does not mean that I attribute sinister
10 political motivations to you but rather that we just
11 simply have an honest difference of opinion. And I
12 think we need to be very careful about impugning one
13 another's motives in this process particularly when
14 this body has served at its own time and its own
15 expense at great sacrifice. I'm convinced that people
16 are well motivated.
17 With respect to this rules issue, I want to thank
18 the Chairman for bringing this matter up in the manner
19 in which he did. Goodness knows, we've had an anxious
20 weekend as people have wondered what direction in
21 which we were going to go and how this was going to be
22 handled. And I commend you, Mr. Chairman, for just
23 simply laying all the cards on the table and giving us
24 this opportunity.
25 As we approach this issue, I would remind you of
33
1 the words of Thomas Jefferson when he commented on the
2 Federal Constitution. And he made this observation,
3 he says, Our particular protection is in that we have
4 a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank
5 sheet of paper by construction.
6 Ladies and gentlemen, I would submit to you that
7 we have written rules that we can look to that tell us
8 how we ought to conduct our affairs. That protects
9 the minority and that protects the majority and it
10 gives us a vehicle for the conduct of the orderly
11 procession of our business. And I would observe,
12 along with Commissioner Langley, that when one looks
13 at Rule 5, we see a sequential process that's set up.
14 As we look at Rule 5.4 (3), we see the natural
15 sequence taking place, a proposal on consideration
16 after having been disposed of by the Style and
17 Drafting Committee, maybe amended or grouped by a vote
18 of at least 22 members of the commission.
19 There's no doubt about the fact that Style and
20 Drafting has not finally disposed of any proposal
21 until we get it. Indeed, they've been meeting on
22 Saturday, on Sunday, on Monday morning. One can
23 scarcely maintain that Style and Drafting has finally
24 disposed of that until we get their work product
25 today.
34
1 And then, in the natural sequence of things, we
2 come to Item No. 4, 5.44, final adoption of a proposal
3 shall require a vote of at least 22 members of the
4 commission.
5 Now, I would suggest to you that the term "final"
6 means the last act, the very last thing you do. In
7 other words, there is nothing yet that remains to be
8 done. And I would submit to you, with all due
9 respect, that we don't have to look to any memoranda,
10 we don't have to look to any transcripts of remarks
11 that have been made or anything else. Final simply
12 means final. We have a rule that helps us understand
13 the direction which we're going.
14 Now, candidly I say this with some trepidation.
15 Knowing that the proposal that meant the most to me
16 only passed by 22 votes. In fact, people were calling
17 me Slim afterwards and I appreciate how very much at
18 risk that proposal may be if it wasn't and ain't
19 already final, it's hanging by a thread. Well, as
20 Commissioner Wetherington had said, You win some and
21 you lose some. And goodness knows, I think I probably
22 lost more than I've won, but so be it. I don't credit
23 you with political motivations in this process.
24 We have some very fine rules that were carefully
25 considered on the front end. Historically we, as
35
1 Americans, have said, We want to be a nation of laws.
2 Let's be a body that abides by the rules. If we want
3 to change the rules, folks, we have a process by which
4 we can change the rules. But let's not engage in any
5 gymnastics that would put our rules asunder.
6 I heard, frankly, some laughter when Commissioner
7 Langley made the comment about the role of the Chair
8 in the vote. But I would just simply direct your
9 attention to the plain language of that rule unless
10 you think that be in jest or be some kind of absurd
11 proposition, Rule 1.7, The Commission Chair shall not
12 be required to vote in ordinary proceedings except on
13 final passage of any proposed revision or part thereof
14 of the Constitution.
15 So folks, I don't think we have an ambiguity in
16 our rules. I don't think we have to look to extrinsic
17 documents to try to figure out what it was that we
18 intended to do. I think the rules are very clear on
19 their face and I think we just ought to follow the
20 rules in the same way that we expect the people and
21 ourselves to abide by the law and the Constitution.
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull
24 followed by Commissioner Smith.
25 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, Members of
36
1 the Commission, I just want to call your attention to
2 the fact that we altered Rule 5 on February 24th
3 following a report of the Rules Committee in which we
4 established that process, and it's found on Page 187
5 of the journal of these proceedings. I'm not going to
6 read all of it, but it talks about what would happen
7 on March 17th and it says, If a proposal is not
8 brought before a revote, the vote taken during the
9 week of February 23rd and 27th is a vote on the
10 matter.
11 All the proposals with 22 or greater votes are
12 recommitted to Style and Drafting for grouping. All
13 other proposals are defeated. B, if a proposal is
14 brought for revote at the request of five members, the
15 proposal is before the commission and available for
16 amendment by simple majority. Proposals on revote
17 must receive 22 votes to be recommitted to Style and
18 Drafting for a grouping, March 23rd, 1998 grouping.
19 Style and Drafting will present groupings for the
20 consideration of the full commission. Sentence:
21 Amendments to proposals and groupings require 22
22 votes. Now that's where we are today.
23 I am well aware of what Rule 5 said before we met
24 and submitted a recommended change which was adopted
25 on motion by this body without objection. That
37
1 constituted a rule change and that's the procedure
2 which we're following.
3 Obviously, as I mentioned before in the colloquy
4 with Commissioner Scott, you can't get the ballot
5 language until you know with finality what the
6 groupings are and we should proceed to do that with a
7 report of the Style and Drafting Committee.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Smith.
9 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I don't care to speak at
10 this time, Mr. Chair.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I thought you asked to be
12 recognized earlier. All right. Does anybody else
13 want to be heard on this? If not, we'll proceed.
14 Commissioner Langley.
15 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Mr. Chairman, I guess to
16 bring this to a head so that we know where we're
17 going, I would make a parliamentary inquiry as to the
18 Chair's ruling on any proposition that comes up for
19 our first consideration. What is the plan?
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I think I've made it
21 clear that the Chair rules that any matter that has
22 received proposal, that has received 22 votes is a
23 final vote.
24 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Is the Chair's ruling then
25 that the votes of last week were the final votes on
38
1 the proposition?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: On the individual proposals,
3 that is correct.
4 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Even though you didn't
5 vote on 21 of them?
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's counted as a negative
7 vote under the rules.
8 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: No, sir, the rules say
9 that you shall vote.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I rule that that does
11 not affect the final vote.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Okay. Mr. Chairman, let's
13 do it right and, you know, there is nothing wrong with
14 doing it right. I don't think it's going to affect
15 the outcome of anything. But you really ought to do
16 it right and, you know, you can still win. It's not
17 right to, you know, to ignore the rules. That's why
18 they are here. If we didn't have rules that big guy
19 on the street would knock you down every time he came
20 by you.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is that an inquiry?
22 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: The inquiry was, and you
23 have ruled, and I have no choice but to appeal the
24 ruling of the Chair. And I request, if you will, that
25 you allow the Rules Committee to meet and discuss this
39
1 and bring back a recommendation.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't think we need to do
3 that, that would delay us further. And my ruling is
4 based on what I consider to be the rules.
5 Commissioner Wetherington.
6 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: Brief recess?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's okay with me. Let's
8 take a five-minute recess. Keep the room secure.
9 Without objection, we'll recess for five minutes. The
10 President's conference room has been made available.
11 I'm going to ask the committee to assemble in there
12 immediately and let's write out what we've been
13 talking about.
14 All right. Commissioner Scott, could you get the
15 rest of the Rules Committee and go in the conference
16 room? Here's Commissioner Langley, Commissioner
17 Evans-Jones, and Commissioner Thompson. Everybody is
18 there as soon as you come.
19 (Brief recess.)
20 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
21 All commissioners indicate your presence. Quorum
22 call. Quorum call.
23 (Pause.)
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're still
25 missing some people. Will somebody check in the
40
1 bubble back there and those that haven't signed in,
2 get them to sign in.
3 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
4 All commissioners indicate your presence. Quorum
5 call. Quorum call.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're still
7 missing, I guess, two or three. Commissioner Connor
8 is here. Sign in, please. Thank you. And
9 Commissioner Morsani is here. Will you sign in and
10 that will complete those that were here before, I
11 believe. Yes. All right. Come to order, please.
12 All right. In our recess the Rules Committee met
13 and has a recommendation on this which I think it
14 would give us a broad consensus on how to proceed and
15 that's what we're trying to get and I believe this
16 will do that if I'm not mistaken. Commissioner
17 Barkdull, you're recognized to present the Rules
18 Committee's solution to this problem.
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Members of the Commission, the Rules Committee met and
21 the consensus was that everything will be on the table
22 for 22 votes. We will use the format that's been
23 suggested by the Style and Drafting Committee that's
24 in the packet on your desk. As we take up the
25 suggested Grouping No. 1, it will be available for
41
1 amendment as to substance. And it will also be
2 available as to amendment as to grouping. Either one
3 of which will take 22 votes.
4 It is a thought that we will go through all ten
5 of the suggested groupings as proposed by the Style
6 and Drafting Committee and we anticipate or we know
7 that there will be some amendments offered by the
8 Style and Drafting Committee which will require some
9 amendments more mechanical to what they have seen in
10 going through these proposals. And if there are other
11 amendments to a proposal or amendments to the grouping
12 system, the whole package will ultimately be returned
13 to Style and Drafting at the conclusion of our
14 consideration of the ten suggested groupings
15 individually.
16 They will then come back and report to us what
17 they recommend as to ballot language, title language
18 and any amendments that have been engrossed into a
19 proposal if it was amended in substance. And at that
20 time, we will take the final vote that would send a
21 measure to the ballot.
22 In any of these proceedings a motion to
23 reconsider will be available by a simple majority vote
24 to get the matter back on the table but it will still
25 take 22 votes to take any action in substance to alter
42
1 either the proposal itself or the proposals as
2 grouped. If I have not stated it correctly --
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is that -- first of all, the
4 Rules Committee unanimously adopted that
5 recommendation, is my understanding. Are there any
6 questions or debate? Commissioner Connor was up
7 first, Sundberg is next.
8 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I have a question of the
9 Rules Chairman if I may. Commissioner Barkdull, in a
10 case of a proposal that is by itself, a single
11 proposal, and in which we may have an interest in
12 amending today, which should come first, the proffer
13 of the amendment or the vote on the group? And if
14 it's voted on, is it -- if it were voted on first, in
15 other words, it's put forth as a single freestanding
16 proposal, would it be subject to amendment after the
17 vote on the grouping?
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, I think on a motion
19 for reconsideration you could get it back up,
20 Commissioner Connor. But I think for the benefit of
21 the body if somebody wants to offer a substantive
22 amendment to a proposal they should offer it first.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct. My
24 understanding of what they said was if you want to
25 substantively amend any proposal, period, regardless,
43
1 on this round, you have to do that and it takes 22
2 votes to adopt your amendment. And the debate
3 limitation on the amendment, is what, two and two?
4 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, I haven't made that
5 yet.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
7 Sundberg has a question.
8 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Barkdull, do
9 I understand that after this vote today or tonight,
10 whenever it may take place, with respect to these
11 proposals, it then goes back to Style and Drafting?
12 And have we then accepted Commissioner Scott's
13 proposition that then ballot language will be
14 constructed and then the matters must come back to
15 this group one more time and be voted with the ballot
16 language and the proposals joined and receive 22 votes
17 once again?
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
19 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Thank you.
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I move that the
21 recommendation of the Rules Committee be approved.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Before we do
23 that, there is a motion made by Commissioner Barkdull.
24 Commissioner Barnett wants to address it.
25 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: No, I don't. I just want
44
1 to make just a point that people will have before
2 them, for the first time, the proposed ballot
3 language. That language is, of course, subject to
4 amendment too by members of the commission but that's
5 on a majority vote.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct.
7 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Just to make sure that
8 clarification is made.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What we're going to do now is
10 we're going to get going if that's agreeable to
11 everybody. All those in favor of the motion say aye.
12 Opposed.
13 (Verbal vote taken.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The motion carries. That is
15 how we will operate. Now, Commissioner Barkdull.
16 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'd like to move you,
17 sir, that we limit debate on proposed amendments to
18 substance, to three and three and proposed amendments
19 to ballot position to three and three with the
20 discretion of the Chair to be lenient on matters that
21 may require it.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There is a motion
23 to limit the debate in the form offered by
24 Commissioner Barkdull. All those in favor say aye.
25 Opposed.
45
1 (Verbal vote taken.)
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That carries as well. Now,
3 it's my understanding there won't be any debate on the
4 issues themselves, the proposals themselves, unless
5 they are amended; is that correct?
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, I assume there
7 wouldn't be unless somebody offered an amendment.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That wouldn't do it
9 otherwise. All right. Then can we get started and
10 everybody now, are we all agreed this is the way we'll
11 proceed? Commissioner Langley.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: We just had a
13 conversation. I mean people talk with you and you
14 talk with people and people assume things that aren't
15 necessarily true. I don't think without a vote of the
16 body you can say there's not going to be any debate.
17 I hope there's none. I'm ready to move on.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Move it.
19 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I'm not moving it. I
20 don't think there ought to be a limit on it. I mean,
21 there should be a limit but not just say there is
22 going to be no debate, what you just said.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I'm waiting on
24 somebody.
25 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Nobody has moved it so
46
1 it's okay.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'd like to recognize
4 Commissioner Mills as chairman of the long-enduring
5 Style and Drafting Committee because I tell you one
6 thing, as we start the process, we really owe a lot of
7 thanks to the six members of this committee. I lost
8 count, but I think when I stopped counting, they had
9 put in a total in excess of 150 person hours on
10 working on this package. And I think they are
11 entitled to a great deal of deference.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Deference to
13 Commissioner Mills, you're recognized.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and
15 Chairman Barkdull. Let me take a minute to both thank
16 some people and tell us where we are. The
17 long-suffering members of the Style and Drafting
18 Committee, Commissioner Alfonso, Commissioner Barnett,
19 Commissioner Ford-Coates, Commissioner Lowndes and
20 Commissioner Scott are the owners of those, I think,
21 more than 150 hours. And I wanted to thank all of you
22 for working as diligently as you did.
23 Another thing I want to do at this point on
24 behalf of other commissioners is to thank the staff of
25 this commission. I mean, I've been in the Legislature
47
1 and others have been in other representative -- in
2 other bodies. To revise the Constitution of the state
3 of Florida with 800-some amendments at one time down
4 to ten propositions at this time, the work that those
5 folks have done, and that is Sue Ellen Cohen, Lynn
6 Imhof, Billy Buzzett, Debby Kearney, Debbie Ben-David,
7 Chris Martinez, Ron Morris, I think we owe them a
8 round of applause.
9 (Applause.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right.
11 COMMISSIONER MILLS: And I certainly wanted to
12 also thank the long-suffering Faye Blanton and her
13 Senate staff for suffering with us and helping us make
14 it through this process. They're used to suffering
15 with Commissioner Jennings.
16 Now let's talk about what we've done here. We're
17 about to get passed out -- we're about to pass out,
18 that's for sure.
19 (Laughter.)
20 You're about to get passed out to you -- and
21 we're getting very sensitive about words in Style and
22 Drafting -- the product as it came out this morning.
23 There are ten propositions and those propositions
24 contain anywhere from one to four or five of the
25 former 36 proposals. I don't know what you have. Now
48
1 is the latest of the morning's proposals. What I
2 would like to do, to allow you to get the vision of
3 the forest rather than the trees, is I'll briefly walk
4 through those ten and tell you kind of what are in
5 them. Then as I understand the process, we'll return
6 to proposition number one and we will vote on the
7 grouping after voting on any amendments to that
8 grouping.
9 Grouping No. 1 relates to environmental issues.
10 It includes four of the proposals we have previously
11 had. The only one of the environmental issues that
12 you previously saw under the environmental heading
13 that's not here is the conservation easement. That is
14 in the local government area because it deals with a
15 tax issue.
16 Proposition 2 deals with education. It contains
17 the two issues dealing with education as a paramount
18 duty and the definition of adequacy, those are both in
19 Article IX. Proposition 3 deals with a selection of
20 judges and the funding of the state court system.
21 Those were the options dealing with -- the local
22 election option dealing with merit retention and the
23 Article V funding, those both relate to Article V and
24 are related to courts.
25 I think also we have in there the technical
49
1 amendment on the Judicial Qualifications Commission
2 because that's in Article V as well.
3 Proposition 4 --
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you still have the 3 in there
5 on the military courts?
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: The military courts ended up
7 being moved to miscellaneous.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay.
9 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Proposition 4 deals with
10 restructuring the state cabinet and that is the
11 cabinet reform proposal.
12 Proposition 5 deals with reapportionment. There
13 are two proposals in here both dealing with the issue
14 of apportionment. One creates the commission. The
15 second deals with establishing voting districts as
16 single-member districts. We'll probably discuss that
17 more when we get to it.
18 Proposition 6 deals with a series of election
19 issues, that is ballot access, public campaign
20 financing, and election process revisions.
21 Proposition 7 deals with local and municipal property
22 tax exemptions and citizen access to local officials.
23 Proposition 8 deals with firearm purchases.
24 Proposition 9 deals with basic rights and religions
25 freedom. And Proposition 10 we have labeled as
50
1 miscellaneous and technical.
2 I want to mention one thing to you as you are
3 considering the ballot language and the groupings. We
4 have attempted to group these both in logical groups
5 related to the topic and in topics that are
6 understandable publicly, because, ultimately, as we've
7 all said, a public decision and we should do the best
8 we can to convey that.
9 Now the other thing you heard described this
10 morning was the ballot title and ballot summary.
11 There are statutory requirements for that which we
12 have adhered to. The ballot title and summary are to
13 convey the chief purpose of those proposals and I want
14 everybody in the public and the press to realize that
15 you have a 75-word limit. So the reason there is not
16 a lot of flowery language in the ballot summary is
17 there is a legal limit to 75 words. And it's a
18 challenge with which we've been faced and which we're
19 all faced is to do an honest job of representing
20 what's contained in there.
21 And I will tell you that the Style and Drafting
22 Committee approached that task as a ministerial job,
23 to do the best job we could to describe what the
24 proposals did, whether we voted for them or against
25 them. And I think we probably are in pretty good
51
1 shape on those.
2 If there are any general questions at this point,
3 I would be glad to try to address those. Otherwise,
4 we can go ahead and deal with Proposition 1.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're ready to
6 go. And here we are -- I feel like an auctioneer up
7 here. If all of you are ready, we'll vote. We're on
8 No. 1, which has been explained to you, and there are
9 seven amendments on the table, six by Style and
10 Drafting.
11 Would you read Amendment No. 1, please.
12 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
13 Drafting, on Page 2, Line 2, after the word "governor"
14 insert comma.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are recognized and
16 Commissioner Mills moves this on behalf of Style and
17 Drafting.
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: It is merely editorial,
19 adding a comma. I'd move it.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
21 the amendment signify by saying aye. Opposed.
22 (Verbal vote taken.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is adopted. Read
24 Amendment No. 2, please.
25 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Thompson, on Page
52
1 2, Lines 20 through 23, delete, Revenue derived from
2 such licensing fees shall be appropriated to the
3 commission by the Legislature for the purpose of
4 management, protection, and conservation of wild
5 animal life, freshwater aquatic life and marine life.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
7 Thompson, you are recognized for Amendment 2 and you
8 can tell us what the new language says.
9 COMISSIONER THOMPSON: Okay. Mr. Chairman and
10 Members, this is basically the amendment we proposed
11 last week. Commissioner Henderson proposed it and
12 then wanted to withdraw it. And we talked about it.
13 It was subsequently defeated. I now -- I have had it
14 drafted to fit into the group and have chosen to offer
15 it in that way rather than as a reconsideration. But
16 the issue is still the same, and that is whether or
17 not all license fees have to go directly to this new
18 agency or whether or not there is still discretion
19 over the saltwater licenses.
20 The logic for that is, number one, there are
21 federal funds that flow. And, number two, there are
22 lot of things that DEP does that are beyond what I
23 think we've all wanted this new commission to do in
24 that I think the main jurisdiction that we are
25 transferring here basically is the seasons, bag
53
1 limits, size limits, those kinds of things. And there
2 a lot of other things that DEP does in respect to this
3 and with these license fees.
4 If you transfer all of this money to the new
5 agency, number one, I think you're going to give it a
6 lot more money than you ever realized and you're going
7 to create something that you didn't realize that you
8 were creating. And, number two, the Legislature won't
9 have the jurisdiction to direct that flow and that
10 jurisdiction as it needs to. And that's basically
11 what the amendment does.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any questions?
13 Commissioner Barkdull has a question. Commissioner
14 Thompson yields.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Commissioner Thompson, as
16 I understand the memorandum that's been handed to me
17 this morning about the impact of this amendment, if
18 this is adopted there will remain in Marine Fisheries
19 the responsibility for marine research, marine law
20 enforcement, and marine executive functions. And if
21 that's true, what are we really accomplishing if we're
22 going to have two enforcement agencies and we're going
23 to have two agencies doing the same items? Or is it
24 the intention to keep them separate? I thought the
25 intention was to merge them.
54
1 COMISSIONER THOMPSON: Well, I think -- I'm not
2 sure as to whether or not you're mixing apples and
3 oranges. What I'm talking about is a transfer of the
4 jurisdiction to deal with one of the big industries in
5 this state, which is seafood and also sports fishing.
6 Now, what are the DEP programs that go back up the
7 line? One of the things I was thinking about
8 yesterday is what jurisdiction is this new
9 constitutional agency going to have over the locks on
10 the Chattahoochee River because that might impact
11 Apalachicola Bay.
12 I think the Legislature is going to have the
13 jurisdiction to determine that and they need to have
14 the funding sources to do that with also.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, seems to me that
16 we're locking in the Constitution the differential
17 between the two agencies that I thought we were trying
18 to merge.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Alfonso.
20 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Just an observation. I'd
21 like to speak against the amendment.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. You're recognized.
23 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Just deja vu all over
24 again. This hasn't changed since last time. We all
25 thought about it and made a decision. We can now
55
1 think about it again. And one would think it was a
2 logical process last time we made this decision. Do
3 we want to create two enforcement agencies? Is this a
4 unification or is it two separate creations? Let's
5 think that out. We've been working on this a long,
6 long time and it's time to just get on with it. So
7 that's all I have to say on this. Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I have a question. Wasn't
9 this withdrawn before we voted on that amendment? We
10 voted on it? Okay. You tried to withdraw it and you
11 couldn't; isn't that what happened, Commissioner
12 Henderson?
13 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I proposed
14 the amendment in good faith after working with the
15 various agencies for several hours and unable to reach
16 an agreement with them. At that time I indicated what
17 would be acceptable would be one amendment or the
18 other.
19 Commissioner Thompson proffered one of the
20 amendments which we did support and it did pass. And
21 this one, I did attempt to withdraw it. But
22 Commissioner Thompson gave a very fair argument in
23 support of it and it did not succeed. And so, I'm
24 here in the same posture today that we were a week ago
25 which is I can tell every person in this chamber that
56
1 I have made my best efforts to try to reach some
2 agreement on this issue and have been unable to do so.
3 And so the question before the body is very
4 simply whether or not the saltwater license fees that
5 are paid by saltwater fishermen should go with the new
6 agency or whether it should go to the Legislature to
7 divide that. The only thing that is new in this
8 discussion is that we have had a chance to look at the
9 federal act, the question has been raised, the
10 Wallop-Breaux Act and that is a federal statute that
11 requires the funds or fees paid by fisherman to go to
12 the Game and Fish Department of the respective state.
13 So there are lawyers that are involved in this
14 issue that have raised the question that if this
15 amendment is adopted, then it has the potential impact
16 of causing us to create a diversion under this federal
17 act.
18 This is difficult for me. I can tell you that
19 there has been a lot of discussion around this issue
20 for the last week. But I'm prepared now to stand on
21 the basis. I stand on the proposal that we have
22 before us as a body. It is the best that we can do.
23 And the Legislature next year will be in the process
24 to have to straighten this out and other things. The
25 Marine Patrol, Marine Institute and other things will
57
1 be before them and they'll be able to figure it out,
2 that's what they're elected to do.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody want to
4 speak further on it, Commissioner Sundberg and then
5 Commissioner --
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I have a question of
7 Commissioner Henderson.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Henderson, do
9 you yield?
10 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Yes, sir.
11 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Henderson,
12 you say that the Legislature will have this issue
13 before them and then can straighten it out. Isn't
14 part of the problem that, in fact, though, revenues
15 are resources that would permit them, if they had the
16 ability to appropriate those revenues, unless
17 precluded by this amendment, that they would have
18 those revenues available to provide for, yes,
19 enforcement of programs in DEP as well as programs in
20 the constitutional commission?
21 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That is correct. The
22 provision we have before us says that the revenues
23 would be appropriated to the commission. I think it's
24 a very practical matter. There are issues concerning
25 the Marine Patrol, the Marine Research Institute which
58
1 does other things than this. Both -- the Marine
2 Patrol enforces regulations regarding saltwater
3 fishing. They also enforce regulations concerning
4 manatees that are unaffected by this proposal.
5 The same is true by the Research Institute. It
6 deals with same fisheries' enhancement issues, but it
7 also deals with manatees that are unaffected by this
8 program. So the Legislature is going to be in a
9 posture next year of trying to draw those lines. And
10 I believe, and I certainly am going to be there next
11 year urging upon the Legislature, that the new
12 commission be in a posture of contracting back with
13 DEP to do some of these things through the Research
14 Institute and through the Marine Patrol.
15 But to divide the fees today, I think does run
16 the risk of us creating a diversion under the federal
17 act and that's why attorneys that have been looking at
18 this are very much concerned about the issue.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I'm going to
20 apply the same rule to debate on the amendments that
21 we did on the other, so three and three is going to be
22 the rule. And we weren't keeping time on this one
23 however. Is there anybody else that wants to speak
24 for or against this? Commissioner Mathis.
25 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: I have a question and I'm
59
1 not sure who to direct it to.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Direct it and we'll make
3 somebody answer it.
4 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Are there other commissions
5 that receive direct funding from fees that are imposed
6 on the citizens of Florida or would this be a new
7 thing?
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I believe the Game Commission
9 does, doesn't it? Commissioner Ford-Coates, can you
10 answer that?
11 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: Currently, the Game
12 and Freshwater Fish Commission is charged with the
13 administration of all hunting and fishing license fees
14 both fresh water and saltwater. A few years ago DEP
15 got out of the business of actually collecting for the
16 salt fresh water fishing license. So today the Game
17 Commission administers those saltwater fishing license
18 fees. I assume they give them back to DEP.
19 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Is that direct
20 administration? The Legislature does not have any
21 part in that?
22 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: The Legislature passes
23 the laws that regulate the fishing, the seasons, et
24 cetera, on salt. The Game Commission provides the
25 regulations on fresh.
60
1 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Did the Legislature
2 delegate that authority for collection of the fees in
3 administering those fees to the commission?
4 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: The law now says the
5 Game Commission is the one that collects them, through
6 their agents, the tax collectors and their subagents.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is there any
8 further discussion be on the amendment? Commissioner
9 Barnett.
10 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Could I ask a question of
11 Commissioner Henderson?
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
13 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Commissioner Henderson,
14 assuming this proposal was adopted --
15 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Assuming the amendment
16 was adopted.
17 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Excuse me, the amendment
18 to the proposal was adopted, would the Legislature
19 still have the option to appropriate all of these
20 funds to the new commission?
21 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Any further questions?
23 Commissioner Alfonso.
24 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Question of Commissioner
25 Barnett.
61
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett, you
2 yield.
3 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Has not the Legislature
4 had this option all these years and what have they
5 done? That's my question.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett.
7 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I don't have any idea.
8 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: That's why we've discussed
9 this and that's why we're doing what we're doing. I
10 just think it's, you know, the last hour here and
11 there's pressure to change the way the money flows on
12 this thing and we've been talking about this for a
13 long time and we're now arguing over who's to manage
14 the critters and the resource. The memo that I read
15 from last time was dated September 30th. It wasn't
16 dated last week. It was an FDEP memo.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now, this takes
18 22 votes to adopt as an amendment. And if you would
19 unlock the machine, we'll vote. Two people haven't
20 voted. If you haven't voted, vote. Now I voted, is
21 that all right, Commissioner Langley, I voted.
22 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: See, you're complying with
23 the rules, Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I was going to rule with you
25 that everything I voted on was all right. And
62
1 everything I didn't wasn't and that wouldn't have been
2 fair, would it?
3 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: You know, you really
4 didn't have to vote on this one.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I did though. I'll vote from
6 now on everything if that's the wish. Lock the
7 machine and announce the vote.
8 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
9 READING CLERK: Twenty-one yeas, 14 nays,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you failed to
12 adopt the amendment. We'll now move to the next
13 amendment, it will be No. 3. Read it, please.
14 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
15 Drafting. On Page 2, Line 21, delete the word
16 "purpose" and insert "purposes."
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is a
18 technical amendment by Style and Drafting.
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I move it.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Just added an "S" to purpose.
21 All in favor say aye. Opposed.
22 (Verbal vote taken.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Carries. Now Amendment
24 No. 4, please read it.
25 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
63
1 Drafting on Page 3, Line 17, delete the comma.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is self-explanatory.
3 Somebody from Marion is deleting the comma.
4 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I move it.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's moved by Commissioner
6 Mills. All in favor say aye. Opposed.
7 (Verbal vote taken.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The comma is deleted.
9 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
10 Drafting. On Page 3, Line 20, delete the word
11 "determines" and insert "determine."
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think this is same type of
13 amendment that we just had. It takes an "S" off this
14 time. We lost an "S" and added an "S." We got to be
15 fair. All in favor say aye. Opposed.
16 (Verbal vote taken.)
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's adopted. Next
18 amendment, please.
19 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
20 Drafting. On Page 3, Line 28, delete the words
21 "either of."
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now, Commissioner Mills, you
23 might better tell us briefly what that does. We're
24 deleting the words "either/or" on Page 3, Line 28.
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I'm getting to the right
64
1 page. Page 3, Mr. Chairman?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Page 3, Line 28, of the
3 proposal.
4 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, it doesn't change the
5 meaning of that surplus language. What you have is
6 "either of" those. And so what you have is on those.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Technical change. All in
8 favor say aye. Opposed.
9 (Verbal vote taken.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's adopted. Now, the next
11 amendment.
12 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Barnett. On Page
13 1, Line 4, after the word "granting," insert "it the."
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett, do you
15 move this? Commissioner Mills can explain it if you'd
16 like.
17 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, what I'd like to do at
18 this point, that is the last Style and Drafting
19 amendment to the text of the proposal and there are no
20 more --
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There are no more on the
22 desk.
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: All right. Now this is
24 relating to the ballot language, Commissioner
25 Barnett's amendment. Now you have the ballot language
65
1 in front of you. On Revision 1, the heading that
2 says, Conservation of natural resources and creation
3 of Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.
4 That's --
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is --
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I want to make sure
7 everybody has that.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is on Page 1, Line 4; is
9 that correct?
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right. Now Commissioner
11 Barnett may want to explain it.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett is
13 recognized.
14 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: This is just a technical
15 amendment, Mr. Chairman. The second clause creates
16 the Game and Fish Conservation Commission and
17 grants -- and then it says, Grants executive powers of
18 the two bodies. We don't say to which entity we grant
19 it. So the amendment says "Granting it the regulatory
20 and executive powers" to make it clear what the new
21 commission gets, those powers.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
23 understand the amendment? Commissioner Scott, you
24 have a question?
25 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Just a question. This
66
1 replaces basically what was in Revision 1. Is that
2 the -- I just don't want us to -- is that the only
3 change made in it? I thought there might be --
4 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: We made substantial
5 changes to the ballot language which is in front of
6 you and this is an amendment to that change that we
7 did this morning. We just left out a designation of
8 who got these powers.
9 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman?
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes, Commissioner Mills.
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: What we decided was you did
13 not have -- what's printed in front of you that
14 contains the entire text was not the final work
15 product of Style and Drafting. The final work product
16 of Style and Drafting with, Commissioner Scott, this
17 morning, et cetera, was this, on the ballot language.
18 And the only thing we're changing is the ballot
19 language.
20 And this ballot language, Commissioner Scott, as
21 you recall, there was concern on this issue to make
22 sure that we were clear that legislative authority had
23 been removed because that was an issue in a case and
24 so it does that.
25 So, this is the ballot language as it came out of
67
1 Style and Drafting and Commissioner Barnett has
2 recognized the insertion of the two words would help
3 clarify it. Now, we had said before that since this
4 is the proposal of Style and Drafting, when you vote
5 on this grouping, I take it at this point you get this
6 language. But you haven't voted on final passage.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So this would be
8 an amendment requiring a simple majority; is that
9 correct?
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And then we come back and
12 vote on it again; is that correct, Commissioner
13 Barkdull?
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is everybody
16 ready to vote on this amendment to the ballot language
17 offered as No. 7, or whatever it is, one Page 1, Line
18 4, after the word "granting," insert "it the." All in
19 favor say aye. Opposed.
20 (Verbal vote taken.)
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is adopted. No further
22 amendments on the table. Commissioner Mills.
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: If I understand the posture
24 we're in, it would now be appropriate to move a vote
25 on the grouping which would require 22 votes?
68
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct unless there
2 are other amendments.
3 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Are there other amendments?
5 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Let me make sure I got this
7 right. This is a motion on the grouping and the
8 ballot language but not the final vote; is that
9 correct?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct. This is a
11 vote on the grouping and the ballot language, not a
12 final vote on the -- any of the proposals.
13 Commissioner Barnett.
14 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Just a question. Not that
15 I think this will happen, but just -- there was -- but
16 anything could happen. If someone wanted to add, say
17 there's another proposed grouping that breaks apart or
18 a provision someone wants to add to this -- can it,
19 even though we're voting on the grouping, is it still
20 available for that amendment?
21 COMMISSIONER MILLS: That's my understanding.
22 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: You don't now need to go
23 to another proposed grouping and pull that out because
24 that's not before us.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She wants to know if you want
69
1 to put something else in this group, do you need to do
2 it now. Is that what you're saying?
3 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Right. Or wait until you
4 come up to that -- can you amend this even though we
5 voted on it as a grouping?
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: By 22 votes.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, I think the
9 response to the question would be that if later on in
10 the proceedings, because of what may happen to a
11 subsequent group, she thinks that there should be an
12 alteration in this group, the proper procedure would
13 be a motion to reconsider the vote by which we adopted
14 this grouping which would take a simple majority to
15 pass and then would get this grouping back on the
16 table again and it would be subject to amendment by 22
17 votes.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is that understood? All
19 right. Now we're going to be ready to vote then on
20 Amendment No. 1, the grouping and the ballot language
21 that is before you. Revision 1 is the way it will be
22 titled. Unlock the machine and let's vote. Everybody
23 hasn't voted. Now we have.
24 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
70
1 the vote.
2 READING CLERK: Thirty-two yeas, three nays,
3 Mr. Chairman.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you've grouped
5 these together and we'll now move to No. 2, Revision
6 No. 2. Commissioner Henderson.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Just since the first one
8 out of the box is the guinea pig and I'm slow, when do
9 we get to the issue of final passage?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: After we come back, after we
11 go through this exercise of dealing with --
12 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: It may be today, it may
13 be next week?
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, it's going to be today if
15 it's tonight. We're going to try to finish this up
16 today. I say that with all degree of expectations.
17 All right. We now go to Revision No. 2. Would
18 you explain -- how are we going to do this? Are we
19 going to read these? Read the title to Provision
20 No. 2.
21 READING CLERK: Provision 2, relating to public
22 education of children.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is the
24 education grouping. Commissioner Mills.
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, I don't think
71
1 there are any Style and Drafting amendments on the
2 desk. There is one, okay.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There is an Amendment No. 1.
4 Would you read the amendment, please. By Style and
5 Drafting, moved by Commissioner Mills.
6 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
7 Drafting, on Page 1, Line 15, delete the word "its."
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
9 Mills.
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: It deletes the word "its."
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. All in favor say aye.
12 Opposed.
13 (Verbal vote taken.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is adopted. Amendment
15 No. 2.
16 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Brochin on Page
17 1, Line 3, delete "adequate" and insert "adequate."
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Wait a minute. Oh, it's
19 spelling. I see. We're going to spell it right, is
20 that right, Commissioner Brochin? Okay. Does
21 everybody understand, this is a correction to make it
22 spelled correctly, "adequate." All those in favor say
23 aye. Opposed.
24 (Verbal vote taken.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does carry. No. 3 is
72
1 next.
2 READING CLERK: By Commission Brochin on Page 1,
3 Lines 16 through 26, delete those lines and insert,
4 State of Florida, it is therefore a paramount duty of
5 the state to make adequate provision for the education
6 of all children residing within its borders. Adequate
7 provision shall be made by law for a uniform,
8 efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of
9 free public schools that allow students to obtain a
10 high-quality education and for the establishment,
11 maintenance, and operation of institutions of higher
12 learning and other public education programs that the
13 needs of people may require.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
15 Brochin, you're recognized on your amendment and this
16 is an amendment to the second one in the revision; is
17 that right?
18 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: Well, it's actually an
19 amendment to both so we can bring them together,
20 that's the whole purpose, so they read well together.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So explain your
22 amendment.
23 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: This does not
24 substantively change either Proposal 181 and it does
25 not substantively change Proposal 157. What it does
73
1 is it makes it so the two read together clearly.
2 And the change is instead of making adequate
3 education, the first part makes clear that it's
4 adequate provision for the education of all children.
5 And then the only change in the second part dealing
6 with adequate provision is we changed the word from
7 "achieve" a high-quality education to the word
8 "obtain" a high-quality education. So substantively,
9 there's no difference.
10 This is the intent to marry the two provisions
11 together.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, does that mean we'll
13 only have one on the ballot?
14 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: I don't know. You have
15 two proposals, 157 and 181. They're read together,
16 they're the same article, they're the same section.
17 It would make sense to present them as one proposal.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: At the moment they're two
19 separate proposals?
20 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: Right. That's only
21 because procedurally that's how they came to us. But
22 they are meant to be read together and they're in the
23 same section.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Did you discuss with Style
25 and Drafting making one proposal out of these?
74
1 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: I did not discuss it with
2 Style and Drafting.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Then we don't have
4 that recommendation before us. Does everybody
5 understand his amendment? Question, Commissioner
6 Connor.
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, I had always
8 been under the impression that we were dealing with
9 two separate proposals. But in my handout of
10 materials, I only have one. Am I missing something
11 here?
12 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: There are two proposals.
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: They have been merged then?
14 Now, here's my question then. So then is Style and
15 Drafting proposing as a grouping that this be one,
16 just one stand-alone proposal rather than --
17 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: I think what Style and
18 Drafting did was take the two proposals, which they
19 were always separate --
20 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: And merged them?
21 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: Well, I don't know if merge
22 them is the right word. But those two proposals have
23 been recommended as one group.
24 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Well, here's my question,
25 Mr. Chairman, if I may.
75
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Your question was the same as
2 mine.
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: It strikes me that this
4 body -- it strikes me that what Style and Drafting has
5 done, unilaterally, I believe, is to group these
6 proposals without an affirmative vote by this body.
7 These always had been, as I understood it, two
8 separate freestanding proposals. And now they've
9 merged them into one which I think ought to require a
10 |
