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1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
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COMMISSION MEETING
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DATE: September 25, 1997
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TIME: Commenced at 9:15 a.m.
11 Concluded at 2:30 p.m.
12 PLACE: The Senate Chamber
The Capitol
13 Tallahassee, Florida
14 REPORTED BY: JULIE L. DOHERTY, RPR
KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
15 Court Reporters
Division of Administrative Hearings
16 The DeSoto Building
1230 Apalachee Parkway
17 Tallahassee, Florida
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1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ (ABSENT)
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
ROBERT M. BROCHIN
6 THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
KEN CONNOR
7 CHRIS CORR (ABSENT)
SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW (ABSENT)
8 VALERIE EVANS
MARILYN EVANS-JONES
9 BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
10 PAUL HAWKES (ABSENT)
WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
11 THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS (ABSENT)
THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
12 DICK LANGLEY
JOHN F. LOWNDES
13 STANLEY MARSHALL
JACINTA MATHIS
14 JON LESTER MILLS
FRANK MORSANI
15 ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
CARLOS PLANAS (ABSENT)
16 JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
17 SENATOR JIM SCOTT
H. T. SMITH
18 CHRIS T. SULLIVAN
ALAN C. SUNDBERG
19 JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON (ABSENT)
PAUL WEST
20 JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON
STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
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PAT BARTON (ABSENT)
22 IRA H. LEESFIELD
LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN
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1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Roll taken and recorded electronically.)
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioners, be seated and we
4 will come to order. Commissioners and guests in the
5 gallery, please rise for the opening prayer given this
6 morning by Commissioner Evans.
7 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Let us pray. Our Father and
8 Creator, we invoke your guidance today as we begin to
9 consider the proposals for our Constitution. We know that
10 the founding fathers of our great nation knew you and
11 followed your guidance in establishing our republic
12 according to your will. Our founding fathers knew that
13 you are the ultimate authority for law and that you alone
14 are flawless. They knew that man cannot successfully
15 tamper with that authority and they knew and required that
16 state constitutions adhere to that authority. So again,
17 we ask that you use us today as your instruments so that
18 we can continue to maintain the greatness of this state
19 and nation all for your glory and honor. Amen.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Henderson will lead
21 us in the pledge of allegiance to the flag.
22 (Pledge of allegiance.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We now proceed to the daily order
24 of business, receiving communications.
25 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
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1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Introductions of proposals.
2 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Reports of committees.
4 Commissioner Barkdull, chairman of the rules and
5 administration, to discuss the commission meeting
6 schedule, process for today's consideration of public
7 proposals, necessity of committee meetings for today and
8 Friday. Commissioner Barkdull.
9 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman and members of
10 the commission, on your desk you will find a written
11 report of the rules committee that met yesterday
12 afternoon. The substance of it is, recommendation No. 1,
13 is that the commission go through the proposals that are
14 contained in your yellow booklet that is on your desk
15 dated September 17. And this has the public's proposals
16 and their testimony through the first seven meetings, that
17 we will ultimately have to take up the last five meetings
18 at our next scheduled session in October.
19 The report also indicates that the calendar attached
20 is a schedule of meetings that has been altered somewhat
21 from what we had distributed earlier.
22 Principally it was occasioned by the Senate having
23 scheduled their committee meetings for January and
24 February. And because the consensus of the rules
25 committee yesterday was that in lieu of having two
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1 meetings in October, two in November and possibly two in
2 December, that we schedule only one meeting for each of
3 those months, I think we probably added a day or two to
4 that schedule. So that is a significant change that has
5 been made in the proposed dates that we would meet.
6 The third recommendation was that we set a deadline
7 for consideration of public proposals that would come into
8 the office by way of mail primarily, now that we have
9 concluded the last of the oral public hearings. And at
10 that date because we have been receiving and the public
11 has been on notice since June, and we of course traveled
12 the state to consider their proposed, whatever they wanted
13 to indicate, that that date be October 6.
14 Now we have been indicating all along that the
15 members should submit their individual proposals and they
16 can either draft them themselves or they can ask the
17 secretary to submit them to bill drafting and have them do
18 it for them.
19 We are recommending that the date for cutoff for the
20 individual members to file their suggestions would be
21 November 25. The reason for this is that we have got to
22 get into the substance of these issues and determine
23 whether we are going to advance them towards being placed
24 on the ballot.
25 For all practical purposes, with the Legislature
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1 convening on the first Tuesday in March, which I believe
2 is either the 2nd or 3rd of March, the great bulk of our
3 work has got to be done, I think, and the committee feels,
4 probably by the end of February. And those of you will
5 see that January and February have blanked out two weeks
6 for each of those months. If we don't need them, that's
7 fine, but you should have the opportunity to know at this
8 point for your calendars at home when you might be
9 expected up here to wrap up the final votes and
10 consideration of the packaging of these proposals so that
11 we will be substantially complete with our work by the end
12 of February.
13 That concludes the report, Mr. Chairman.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans-Jones.
15 COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES: Mr. Chairman, I move
16 acceptance of the rules committee report.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Debate? Commissioner
18 Scott.
19 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: All right. Mr. Chairman, for
20 some time now, I have struggled and several of us have
21 struggled with a way to handle these public proposals, and
22 in general I suppose the work of the commission.
23 Let me start from the back end. Yesterday we found
24 out, I think Judge Barkdull and I at the same time, that
25 this list we have here does not include Daytona,
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1 Ft. Myers, Tampa and of course Tallahassee, which was just
2 yesterday, as well as as many, 150 I think I heard or 200
3 or maybe more written proposals that have been submitted
4 to the commission office.
5 So what I have come up with, working with several
6 commissioners, as a way to get this public proposals
7 moving is on your desk. It is a list of several items
8 which have been brought up by the public. It is -- it is
9 not me or anyone else who might agree with this, it is not
10 our endorsement that any action is necessary on these
11 proposals, but that they had significant public interest
12 or in some cases that we know -- and in some cases we know
13 that members are going to file them.
14 They have been arranged by articles and I suppose
15 what I would like to do is prior to adoption to report on
16 how we proceed is to discuss the idea of putting out this
17 list of basically committee proposals or copies that would
18 go to committees. The committees would then take the
19 public proposal, discuss it, determine what they want to
20 file and that they would then be able to file the
21 proposals for consideration of the commission.
22 Now, the other way is fine. We can go through, on
23 any particular subject, we move a particular item. And I
24 might point out to you that the public proposals -- we
25 have had all these public hearings and they have been
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1 listed and they are published in the journal. So the
2 question are they being considered, they have been
3 considered.
4 So when appropriate, and I've not made the motion, I
5 don't know exactly, I would like to make a motion and the
6 commission look at this list and see if this covers most
7 of your, of the concerns that you feel have been raised or
8 that you think the commission could consider based on the
9 public input we have received.
10 Keeping in mind that in addition to this, any member
11 can file any proposal that they wish to at any time up to
12 a deadline, which is, if we adopt the rules committee
13 report, sets forth a deadline in I think November. And if
14 you want to add something to this motion for the
15 committees to consider, you could add to it.
16 So I wanted to raise this subject and I did try to
17 raise it, I mentioned it at the rules committee yesterday,
18 and I mentioned it before to the chairman of rules and to
19 the chairman of the commission.
20 So with that discussion, I would like to, when
21 appropriate, move this motion. And it is not in lieu of,
22 although it was originally discussed, it is not in lieu of
23 going through but at least when we go through these item
24 by item, if you adopted this, you would know what items
25 are going to be submitted for consideration and you could
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1 take that under consideration as to whether you wanted to
2 move and discuss and debate and try to have ten votes on
3 any particular procedure.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
5 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, one of the things
6 I think that we have all shared in this process is how
7 special the public participation has been. We have had
8 people who absolutely have been terminal patients, who
9 have had personal problems, who have been willing to share
10 with this commission things that you wonder if they would
11 share with their priest. So I think that we feel a pretty
12 special relationship to the public.
13 And what I have -- I have been discussing this issue
14 both with Judge Barkdull and Commissioner Scott -- and
15 what they absolutely have in common is that same respect
16 for the public proposals. And so what we are trying to
17 figure out here collectively as a commission, how can we
18 give the respect to those public proposals they deserve.
19 And I think there is probably some merit in both of these.
20 We also know that we are going to be around a long
21 time in committees considering this, so what we might do,
22 Mr. Chairman, to respect these approaches for considering
23 is take at least a brief recess so we could look at
24 Commissioner Scott's list, discuss how procedurally we
25 might be able to do actually both, in some way, because
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1 both have some, have merit.
2 And I think that I have the sense of the commission,
3 we would like to give thorough, valid consideration to the
4 public so that we understand that, and the public
5 understands that we are going to fulfill the faith they
6 have placed in us. So I think that possibly five or ten
7 minutes to take a look at the list and then decide how we
8 might proceed procedurally to meet those purposes.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Before we go further,
10 I think most people are like me, I didn't get this until
11 just a few minutes ago. I haven't had a chance to look at
12 it. And I didn't really know about this, I thought we
13 were dealing with the rules committee, until this morning.
14 So I think it would be appropriate, certainly, if we
15 recessed for about ten minutes to give everybody an
16 opportunity to look this over and the rules committee
17 report, which had come to us yesterday. So I'll entertain
18 a motion by Judge Barkdull for a ten-minute recess.
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: So moved.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor say aye.
21 (All respond affirmatively.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We will recess for ten minutes
23 and we will be back in the chamber at 20 minutes until
24 10:00. Keep the chamber closed please. Secure the
25 chamber. It is 9:28, 20 minutes until. Incidentally,
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1 there is a shorter version of these public proposals in
2 the journal that is on your desk.
3 (Brief recess.)
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioners, come to order. We
5 need to get going. All right. Commissioners, please take
6 your seats and we will start.
7 All right. We are now back in session. Commissioner
8 Barkdull?
9 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Chairman, please note I'd
10 like to speak in opposition to the motion.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have that right. Do you have
12 something, Senator Scott?
13 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I'm going to make a motion.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Wait a minute, there is not a
15 motion.
16 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I thought he made the motion.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, no, he did not; he did not.
18 So there is nothing to debate at this point. You said you
19 were going to move it.
20 Order please. Commissioner Evans-Jones.
21 COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES: There is a motion on the
22 floor because I made that we accept the rules.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct. That is the
24 motion that's on the floor. That is the motion that's on
25 the floor, that we accept the report of the rules
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1 committee. And, Judge Barkdull, you want to speak to
2 that?
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: No, I want to speak in favor
4 of that, but it was my understanding Commissioner Scott
5 said he was going to propose this substitute or in lieu
6 thereof.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Let's don't get too balled
8 up. Do you want to move that, Senator Scott -- excuse me,
9 Commissioner Scott?
10 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I would like to move it,
11 Mr. Chairman, at the appropriate time. If the appropriate
12 time is now, then I would like to move that -- I would
13 make the motion.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman?
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
16 COMMISSIONER MILLS: The way we could make some
17 progress here is to go ahead and vote in favor of the
18 report, right? Well you can vote in favor of the report
19 and then this motion really is aside from the report,
20 isn't it? I mean, it is a motion outside the report.
21 (Off-the-record comment.)
22 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, all I'm suggesting is that
23 you, if you move to accept the report then you have a
24 process set for consideration, then you could have --
25 because this motion, as drafted by Senator Scott, is to
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1 waive the rules. So it would supersede whatever you have.
2 The acceptance of the motion and the unanimous
3 support doesn't preclude Senator Scott from making a
4 motion to waive the rules. So therefore we could all
5 happily vote for the rules committee report, Senator Scott
6 could make his motion, and hypothetically someone could
7 move to defer consideration of that motion.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think that's a correct
9 explanation. Before the commission is the report of the
10 rules committee on motion to approve it. If it is
11 approved, Senator Scott's motion would be in order as a
12 motion to waive the rules.
13 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mr. Chairman --
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott. I have got
15 to remember you are Commissioner Scott.
16 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I would move to amend the rules
17 committee report to provide that the following topics
18 outlined in this motion be referred to the committees and
19 the committees be allowed to develop committee proposals
20 to be filed with the secretary for consideration.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott, that requires
22 waiver of the rules. Committees cannot offer committee
23 proposals, they can only offer substantive proposals and
24 the proposals have to be introduced by a member. I'm not
25 sure it would be appropriate to amend this motion that
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1 way.
2 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Let me get a little bit of
3 parliamentary help. I don't care about arguing the
4 parliamentary part. What I want to do, what I have tried
5 to do here is to get us some public proposals, from the
6 public proposals that would be committee proposals. And
7 I'm not trying to exclude anything. Everybody can still
8 file whatever.
9 So however it is appropriate to do that, and I
10 personally think, maybe the members, I understand some of
11 them may disagree, that if we are going to adopt this we
12 ought to adopt it so we know that these topics are going
13 to be taken up by the committees. Another idea was to
14 defer it.
15 Wherever it is appropriate to make this motion. It
16 could be a substitute motion, it is a majority vote,
17 right? If I make a substitute motion to adopt the report
18 with this --
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Not on the issue of the waiver of
20 the rules on the committee introducing proposals.
21 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Mr. Chairman, as a point of
22 order, I disagree with that, if I may. You are only
23 amending --
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley, you are
25 recognized, sir. Your mic is on now.
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1 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Yes, sir. Commissioner
2 Douglass, Mr. Chairman, it would only take a majority to
3 amend the motion. Then it would take, if that motion is
4 amended in that it changed the rules, it would then take a
5 two thirds to pass the amended motion. But Mr. Scott's
6 motion would only take a majority.
7 All we are trying to do is -- you know, I counted, if
8 you didn't, there are 393 proposals so far. And we don't
9 have Ft. Myers, Daytona Beach, Tallahassee and some other
10 area in here, Tampa, yet. A lot of people went to a lot
11 of trouble and this is very dear and near to their hearts,
12 the proposals they make. You-all want to sit here and you
13 have got 20 proposals on whether or not to amend the age
14 and privacy. If you want to vote down 19 of them and
15 accept one, that's what we will be doing today if we go
16 through these item by item by item. Or do you want to
17 vote up all 20 of them? It is kind of ridiculous.
18 The way I think for the orderly process would be to
19 take up Senator Scott's motion and let any member here
20 amend that motion if, from your review of what's presented
21 to us, it is either improperly worded or not inclusive
22 enough to have the issue that you have interest in. And
23 then amend that motion to include all of those and I think
24 we will have a unanimous vote on the motion when it is
25 over.
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1 And then to the public who have worked these things
2 up and came and presented them to us, they are not
3 rejected. Look there is my proposal, it is embodied in
4 that motion and there it is in committee and I am going
5 somewhere with it. Rather than, golly, they vote I
6 couldn't get ten votes on my proposal.
7 So anyway I think, again, my point of rising,
8 Mr. Chairman, was to say procedurally we only need a
9 majority on Senator Scott's motion. And if that results
10 in a rule change, then that motion would need two thirds.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman and members of
13 the commission, my problem with this is, this is not what
14 we told the public we were going to do. We told the
15 public that we were going out to hear what they had to say
16 because that's what we took an oath to do. That's what
17 the Constitution required us to do is have public
18 hearings.
19 We laid out in our rules, which has been public for
20 over 90 days, that when the commission met at the
21 conclusion of the public hearings, we were going to
22 consider each item that they brought up. And if one
23 member of the commission wanted to move further
24 consideration of that item, and he could get nine other
25 members of the commission to go along with the fact that
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1 one member of the commission wanted further consideration,
2 the matter would be continued further.
3 And that there would be -- there was nothing in our
4 rules that indicated that we were going to try to sit down
5 and be selective about which of the public issues we were
6 going to consider. We told them we were going to consider
7 all of them. We laid out in our rules specifically how we
8 were going to do it. And as this proposed motion says, it
9 is in lieu and "in lieu" means instead of what we told the
10 public. And that's why I oppose it. And I think we
11 should stand with the rule we adopted and go through and
12 consider the public items, item by item as we told the
13 public we were going to do.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further
15 discussion? Commissioner Wetherington.
16 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: What's the Chair's view
17 on this issue? I don't see how --
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: My view is I, we have a rules
19 committee, it met, and they made this recommendation based
20 on the rules and on our previous commitments. And
21 obviously, as the Chair, I would support my committee.
22 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: Well I don't understand
23 that Senator Scott's proposal is going to be an indication
24 that the commission is not going to be considering all the
25 proposals. So I don't read it that way at all.
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1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'm not going to get into the
2 debate on what his proposal means. I'm just saying my
3 position as chairman is to support the rules committee,
4 which I think is appropriate. And the rules committee
5 report, if it is adopted, then other motions are
6 appropriate. Commissioner Mills?
7 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well if I understand where we
8 are, I think the only motion that's been made, I think, is
9 the adoption of the rules committee report.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There has been a motion on the
11 floor to adopt the rules committee report and I think
12 Senator Scott wants to make a motion to amend that that
13 excludes waiver of the rules.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: If Senator Scott waited until
15 after the vote on this motion, then it would seem to me to
16 be just as timely. I understand it would require two
17 thirds. Senator Langley is saying that if you take it as
18 an amendment, it could be only a majority, but that if you
19 take it up after this, it would require two thirds. I
20 don't disagree with that.
21 But the substance of the motion requires a waiver
22 anyway. But I mean it is Senator Scott's motion.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'm going to have to quit calling
24 them senators too, but they are commissioners. And I'll
25 try to not do that as well. Commissioner Barnett?
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1 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me
2 that senator, Commissioner Scott's proposal has a lot of
3 merit in terms of how we organize our work. And that the
4 real focus of his motion is to come to some orderly way to
5 address several hundred public proposals. And for that
6 reason, I like it. I think it's a rational approach to a
7 very daunting task.
8 On the other hand, I think that Commissioner Barkdull
9 is absolutely right in that we have made numerous
10 statements to the public that we will consider their
11 proposals. And the, what I would like to do is have an
12 opportunity today to review the public proposals that have
13 been presented and perhaps take up Senator Scott's motion
14 or his idea in whatever appropriate forum at the end of
15 the day after we have had a chance to look at the types of
16 items he has referred to in his listing.
17 I don't know what some of these mean. I don't know,
18 for example, whether -- we were just talking, Commissioner
19 Connor and I -- whether the reference to merit retention
20 also includes the election of judges. Some people would
21 say, yes, they do, but I don't know. I mean, they are
22 very different concepts. And I think it is important for
23 us to make sure we go through and have an opportunity to
24 give some consideration to these matters.
25 I don't see, for example, the net ban on here. Well
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1 perhaps the net ban is something that can't get ten votes,
2 but perhaps it can. We will not be able to say to the
3 public that the commission adequately considered an issue
4 that we heard enormous amounts of pointed and emotional
5 testimony.
6 And so before I could support this, I would like to
7 have some discussion of the issues. Let's amend, you
8 know, modify, expand, whatever this type of list and then
9 I think we might want to take the position that this is an
10 orderly way to conduct our business.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Nabors?
12 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Yeah, I don't want to add to
13 the load here, but the thing that I have been struggling
14 with, and it goes to what Commissioner Langley said, is
15 when we get to a proposal, for example, that has like 20
16 different permutations to it, under our rule, as I
17 understand them, if I move that then I am the sponsor of
18 that, and I have got the burden of carrying that proposal
19 through.
20 It seems to me that if you really boil this down,
21 there are 20 or so concepts embodied, or maybe more, in
22 this whole process, and maybe an answer would be if we get
23 to an area like valid access, rather than me having to
24 vote on a particular proposal, because that individual
25 made a particular proposal, not as it was wedded in stone,
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1 that a person could move the concept of valid access to
2 committee.
3 Then they wouldn't have the burden of having to
4 sponsor that, if it gets ten votes, it goes to committee,
5 committee takes it up. That way there is certainty about
6 what we do. And we can then run through a lot of these
7 proposals because they are all centered around the same
8 concept.
9 When we have meetings next week and the next week, if
10 it is a concept that's already been moved, there is
11 nothing wrong with taking public testimony on that concept
12 and it wouldn't necessitate another vote on a specific
13 proposal. That might be a middle ground. I'm very
14 sympathetic with both views, but it seems to me -- I have
15 an awkward time on voter initiative, like a statutory
16 initiative. Which one do I pick that I'm going to vote
17 on?
18 And if I pick it, that means I have got to carry the
19 load of that initiative. And it seems to me that what we
20 need to do is find what is the body of proposals that we
21 want to agree on. Because everybody can always file an
22 individual proposal on their own.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let me give you what I would rule
24 in that regard. As we go through these, if you get 11
25 votes on something like you are talking about, the subject
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1 matter, it will be referred to committee as a public
2 proposal. It would list whoever moved it as the sponsor
3 of the public proposal. It would not prevent that person
4 from opposing it or otherwise because my understanding
5 would be that the vote today on these, the 11 -- ten-vote
6 requirement, only moves it forward. It doesn't say you
7 are for it or against it either.
8 And if you don't vote for it, it doesn't say you are
9 against it. And I would rule that's the case. And so
10 whoever moved one of these public proposals would not be
11 vouching for that specific proposal, but the committee
12 then could consider all subject matters surrounding that
13 proposal. That would be the way I would interpret it.
14 Does the rules chair interpret it that way, too?
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: No disagreement.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
17 Evans-Jones.
18 COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES: Mr. Chairman and members
19 of the commission, I feel very strongly that we have made
20 a commitment to the general public. We have said that we
21 are going to consider all of the proposals. All the
22 proposals are not listed in what Mr. Scott has presented.
23 I understand that he has said we can add to, and I think
24 that we should.
25 The other problem that I have is going straight to
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1 committee. There may be people who would like to sponsor
2 the concept, the public concept, and can get those ten
3 votes that would not be a member of the committee that it
4 is referred to. And I think that that would bring
5 additional debate, conversation and so forth to that
6 committee if you are really very, very interested in that
7 particular public proposal.
8 I do think that this is an arduous process and I
9 recognize that. But I think that since we said that we
10 are going to consider every single proposal that has been
11 sent to us, that we have an obligation to do just that.
12 And I recognize that it is time consuming, but I think
13 once you have made a commitment, and we have said this
14 from the very beginning, that it really is, you know,
15 going back on what we have committed to do. And I don't
16 think we should do that.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Langley?
18 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Mr. Chairman and body, it
19 isn't only time consuming, Commissioner Evans-Jones, it is
20 staff consuming. So are we going to vote, as Commissioner
21 Nabors said, are we going to vote for all 20 ballot access
22 proposals because is any one better than the other?
23 Then according to these rules, all proposals
24 receiving that will advance to bill drafting, receive a
25 number and be referred to committee. So now we are going
24
1 to have 20 bills in that committee, proposals, all on
2 valid access? All we are trying to do -- and, again, we
3 can consider any public proposal here that is not included
4 in this abbreviated motion. But you don't want bill
5 drafting to be sitting there drafting 20 proposals on
6 ballot access or we will never get our work done.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley?
8 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Mr. Chairman, in the interest of
9 time, we have spent an hour deciding how we are not going
10 to do it. I feel that more is better at this point and I
11 would strongly suggest that we move the rules of the
12 committee and that we use Commissioner Scott's list as we
13 go through that and vote on them not by individual
14 proposals, but as, by issues. And that issue can be for
15 and against the same issue. And that we just vote that on
16 to the committee and that we get on with it.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I think it needs to
18 be made clear that any commissioner at any time can
19 introduce a proposal, number one.
20 Number two, the fact that it doesn't get ten votes
21 doesn't mean it is not being considered. The specific
22 proposal might not be, but if there is one that embodies
23 the subject matter, the committee can consider the entire
24 subject.
25 Commissioner Sundberg.
25
1 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Mr. Chairman, I sense we are
2 really sort of talking about two different things and I
3 think perhaps Commissioner Riley has put her finger on it.
4 So if I may to the rules chairman address a question.
5 Commissioner Barkdull, do you perceive that -- and I join
6 those who say that we have an obligation to consider each
7 of the proposals that have been put forward by the public.
8 The question is, when we then move to consider those
9 proposals, as has been stated numerous times here, there
10 are shaded permutations of the same issue that have been
11 present, eight, ten, 12 different times. Are we going to
12 have to vote each of those issues up or down, or will we
13 be in a position to say, that fits within the rubric of
14 election reform and that we then may vote it up or down,
15 you know, depending on how that particular motion is
16 amended? So that we don't have to vote precisely on each
17 proposal so long as that proposal is embodied in a larger
18 aggregation of that issue.
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Was that a question or a
20 statement?
21 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: That was a very comprehensive
22 statement.
23 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It is my understanding that
24 if the subject of elections were referred to a committee,
25 by receiving the necessary ten votes, that the committee
26
1 under the rules has the opportunity to present a
2 substitute on the same subject matter.
3 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Obviously my question was too
4 comprehensive. I'm not talking about what the committee
5 does with it. I'm talking about as we move forward today,
6 let's assume that there are seven different proposals
7 which are, as I say, shaded gradations of a particular
8 issue.
9 Merit retention, and so long as we are satisfied that
10 it leaves open the question, should all judges be elected,
11 should all judges be subject to merit selection and merit
12 retention or some part of it, so long as we are all
13 satisfied that the issue is framed to be comprehensive
14 enough, may we vote on it in that fashion without going
15 through, as Commissioner Langley indicated, and say, well,
16 there were nine proposals for election of judges, there
17 were 12 for merit retention and we have to address each
18 one of them.
19 Or may we package them, so to speak, as a group here
20 and send it to committee, do it in that comprehensive
21 fashion.
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I think if we voted, say, to
23 take up merit retention and it went to a committee, and
24 obviously merit retention is contrary to election. And
25 the committee would have the right, after merit retention
27
1 had been forwarded to them, to determine whether they were
2 going to submit that back out to the body or whether they
3 were going to offer a substitute for it. But the next
4 step on the line is committee consideration.
5 And I don't think that the rules limit, once the
6 subject matter is in the committee, as to what the
7 committee can do with it.
8 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I agree with that. My
9 question goes to how we must package it when we send it to
10 committee.
11 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: As I said, Commissioner
12 Sundberg, if you send merit retention to a committee, the
13 method of merit retention, which presumes that we would
14 not have election, would take both issues up before the
15 committee, in any form that the committee determined to
16 bring it out.
17 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Commissioner Barkdull, may I ask
18 a question?
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley?
20 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I'd like to ask a question
21 following that. Does that mean, does that preclude then a
22 commissioner, when you come to an article that has within
23 that section seven different proposals, could you not
24 then, some of them being for and some of them being
25 against, could you not as a commissioner make a motion to
28
1 pass through all of the proposals in which case what you
2 are saying doesn't say that, but in fact in action we
3 could do it that way and that would answer Commissioner
4 Sundberg's --
5 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: If that's what are listed
6 under the section.
7 COMMISSIONER RILEY: So, in fact, we would move
8 forward the whole issue and all of its permutations.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let me just interrupt and say
10 that the rules committee report does not require the
11 consideration of every single item on here. What it
12 requires under the rules committee report is for somebody
13 to move it forward. And that doesn't mean you are for or
14 against it, you are not voting it up or down, as I
15 understand the rules committee report.
16 So we will not -- we will be considering them by
17 article. And if nobody moves one, two or whatever, we
18 will move to the next article. But so failure for
19 somebody to move in effect eliminates any votes on that
20 particular item. If somebody wants to move the particular
21 item or items, one at a time they can, under the rules
22 committee report.
23 But in no instance is the person moving it deemed to
24 be necessarily supporting it. He is doing it for the
25 purpose of fulfilling what we said we would do to the
29
1 public. Commissioner Mills.
2 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, first I think it
3 is worth saying that to understand why we are spending
4 time doing this is I think everybody wants to have full
5 and fair public consideration and the public needs to
6 understand that. Doing this up front and having this
7 conversation uniformly is true in the chamber, everybody
8 is trying to do the best thing to enhance public
9 consideration.
10 Having said that, based on the Chair's ruling which
11 says that you can make a motion to consider issues
12 collectively, and it wouldn't necessarily be a member
13 issue; is that correct? I think Commissioner Riley's idea
14 also makes sense that you are trying to consolidate
15 different ideas under a given motion, thereby giving
16 comprehensive consideration to a number of public ideas.
17 So if I was one of the ten people that suggested
18 election reform, if election reform is referred to the
19 election committee, I know I can go to that committee and
20 discuss my idea. Because election reform has been
21 preserved as a public idea. And irrespective of whether
22 any particular language is drafted at this moment, it will
23 be able to be considered, whether it is parental consent
24 or different issues, that those issues will be preserved.
25 Senator Scott has a list of issues and I understand
30
1 one option would be actually for Senator Scott or someone
2 to make a motion on each of Senator Scott's topics, or for
3 that to be viewed as a list of topics. And if each one of
4 those got ten votes, at the beginning of that article,
5 that would in effect accomplish the same thing; would it
6 not?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct.
8 COMMISSIONER MILLS: And to procedurally get us to
9 that point, if someone wanted to offer a substitute motion
10 to do that, I don't believe that's inconsistent with the
11 rules. It is consistent with the rules as described by
12 the rules chairman, as interpreted by the Chair.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Nothing would prevent somebody
14 from moving a particular item at any time. I think it
15 would result in that. Commissioner Scott, you wanted to
16 be recognized?
17 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well as I understand, that's
18 fine. I mean, when we get to Article I there is these
19 suggestions and, you know, we bring them up and we don't
20 have to get into two thirds or whatever.
21 I just want to make one point and that is, this is
22 not in lieu of, Judge Barkdull. I want to make that
23 point. This is not in lieu of the opportunity of going
24 through every article, if this motion was adopted. But to
25 do it that way is fine with me.
31
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Anthony.
2 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 Given that comment by Commissioner Scott, I'd like to move
4 to call the question on the motion. Oh, we don't have
5 that. I'm sorry.
6 SECRETARY BLANTON: We just moved the adoption of the
7 committee report.
8 COMMISSIONER ANTHONY: I'd like to move the adoption
9 of the committee report. Given that we have spent an hour
10 discussing, why don't we try to get into some action?
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Ford-Coates was next
12 and then, Commissioner Zack, you will follow.
13 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: I'd just like to get a
14 clarification on what I think we are talking about,
15 modifying our process of what happens when it gets to
16 committee.
17 As we originally adopted the rules before we went
18 through the public hearing and really had a chance to
19 listen to what people were saying and have a real concept
20 of what we were, of the magnitude of issues with which we
21 would be dealing, the original concept was that staff
22 would draft a proposal that goes to committee.
23 If we are moving ideas and larger issues then, are we
24 not saying that it is going to be more a process of
25 discovery, or whatever the right term would be, of
32
1 research of what proposals that committee would like to
2 see, the specifics of those, therefore staff would not be
3 drafting umpteen proposals. I think we need to clarify
4 that, because we do have a limited staff, to make sure
5 that we understand how we would be operating.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Zack.
7 COMMISSIONER ZACK: First of all, I have a minor
8 housekeeping matter before the report is actually adopted.
9 In talking to various commissioners during the recess, it
10 was felt that since our next meeting is going to begin on
11 a Monday morning, that we could begin at 9:00 a.m. on
12 Monday, come in Sunday evening, and work late the Monday,
13 Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and therefore be able to
14 adjourn on Thursday evening. And it was felt that for
15 everyone's scheduling purposes that might be an
16 improvement as to doing it during the five days presently
17 scheduled.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I think we could take
19 that up after we get this matter resolved and the rules
20 committee might consider that.
21 Commissioner Connor, you wanted to be recognized.
22 COMMISSIONER ZACK: That was just the first thing.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Excuse me, he is not through.
24 COMMISSIONER ZACK: That was just a minor matter that
25 needs to be addressed before the report is actually
33
1 adopted. But I do think it is extremely important that it
2 is clear to the public that not only are each -- not only
3 will each matter be considered by each member of this
4 commission, but as you pointed out and has been pointed
5 out repeatedly, every single commissioner has the right to
6 put this on at any time. So you have every one of us
7 continuing to consider it all the way until November 25,
8 which I believe is the deadline when any one of us can
9 raise any of these 300-plus public issues at any time.
10 So this is a continuing process. And whatever we do
11 here today should not be perceived as closing the door on
12 any of these public proposals.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now Commissioner Connor.
14 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And
15 part of my question involves who decides the issue. For
16 example, concerns that I had raised in my discussion with
17 Senator Scott was whether or not the way in which it is
18 framed, right of privacy versus parental authority, is
19 broad enough to include expanded protection for unborn
20 children without regard to the issue of parental consent,
21 and whether or not the issue of merit retention, as
22 framed, is broad enough to raise the issue as to whether
23 or not all judges should be required to be elected.
24 Now my question is ultimately who decides, by when do
25 we know the effect of the ruling. Because I think what
34
1 most of us are concerned about is whether or not there is
2 a drop dead date after which we may not be permitted to
3 come forward with a proposal that we thought was
4 adequately covered by the way in which it was framed, only
5 to discover by someone's ruling, I know not whom at this
6 point, they decide that it is not fairly embraced within
7 the language that was adopted.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The drop dead date under the
9 proposal of the rules committee is November 25.
10 Commissioner Scott.
11 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, in further answer,
12 if we are going with the procedure we seem to have a
13 consensus on that Commissioner Mills has proposed, when
14 that item comes up, you can move appropriate amendment
15 language, whatever you want, to make sure what it covers.
16 (Off-the-record comment.)
17 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: No, it would be today as we get
18 to that item. If you, you know -- and further, as we
19 discussed, we have the right to introduce a member's
20 proposal at any time. So, Mr. Chairman, I think we kind
21 of narrowed in here on a procedure that we would go
22 through, look at these items --
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have some others that want to
24 speak and I don't want to cut them off.
25 Commissioner Barkdull, will you yield to Commissioner
35
1 Freidin?
2 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: With regard to the rest of the
3 committee's report, the deadline for public proposals that
4 the committee recommends is October 6, 1997. It is kind
5 of down at the end of the committee report. I don't know
6 if anybody got that far. It seems to me that that is
7 about a week from now. By the time that word gets out to
8 the public, it is going to be only a matter of days. And
9 it seems to me like that's a little short and I would like
10 to see that lengthened. I'd like to hear what the
11 committee's thinking was on why it needed to be that
12 quickly.
13 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: The committee's thinking was
14 that it has been open for the public to submit things in
15 writing, and that's what we are talking about, since the
16 commission was organized in June. We are going to be up
17 here -- as it turns out now, we are going to be up here
18 two weeks later. When we originally picked that date, we
19 were scheduled to be up here a week later.
20 And we were trying to get all the matters that will
21 be considered by the commission that the public proposed
22 where we had to exercise discretion on the ten-day vote,
23 where we would take them all up at the next meeting.
24 I would certainly not object, now that we have moved
25 to the 20th as being the time we are going to come back up
36
1 here, move it to the 13th. But I don't think it ought to
2 be moved any further up than that because we have got to
3 give staff an opportunity to incorporate it in our
4 materials which we would take up. But I think it would be
5 no problem in accepting an amendment at the appropriate
6 time moving that date from the 6th to the 13th.
7 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I don't know when the
8 appropriate time would be.
9 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, when we get through
10 with this motion.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let me say -- excuse me,
12 Commissioner Barnett. Would you yield to Commissioner
13 Barnett?
14 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: No, this is a question of
15 Commissioner Scott.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right.
17 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: On the last discussion you had
18 with Commissioner Connor about taking the list and
19 amending it, on a motion of any commissioner, the concern
20 is that currently under our rules ten members of the
21 commission can sponsor a public proposal and it will be
22 considered by committee.
23 If you have to amend your motion, that requires a
24 majority vote. And so have we put people in a situation
25 who may want to amend this listing so that they have to
37
1 get a majority?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let me clarify. I think I know
3 what you have in mind, Commissioner Scott. If you adopt
4 these one by one, we are still going to go through these
5 section by section like they are in the calendar as we
6 noticed. And at that point, Commissioner Connor, the one
7 that you want to pick, you can move it. And it is already
8 there in the specific form. It will go to the committee.
9 And we are going to do that regardless of how we go
10 anyway. So that might answer some of the objections,
11 Commissioner Scott.
12 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: So the answer, Mr. Chairman,
13 is that we would not be amending Commissioner Mills' or
14 Commissioner Scott's motion requiring a majority vote, but
15 if you want to add an item it is ten votes --
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I understood what he was
17 proposing now that we go through your list and if they get
18 ten votes, that they be referred to committee as a public
19 proposal. Like Article I, access to the courts regardless
20 of age, show of hands. If it gets ten votes, it goes to
21 committee. Then we go right down his list.
22 Then we revert to our order, which is to take this
23 calendar right here and I'll say, all right, we are going
24 to take up Article I, declaration of rights. Does anybody
25 move for any of the public proposals? If so, be
38
1 recognized and we will take a vote. If it gets ten votes,
2 that will go to committee too.
3 I think that would answer the objections that
4 Commissioner Connor was raising and I think you are
5 amenable to that; are you not?
6 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Yes, Mr. Chairman. And at this
7 point I would join, if amendment is necessary as proposed
8 by Commissioner Mills, that we go ahead with the report
9 subject to the date change that Commissioner Freidin --
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I haven't even seen Commissioner
11 Evans standing over here very patiently and she wants to
12 speak. So I don't want you to not get to speak.
13 Commissioner Evans.
14 COMMISSIONER EVANS: It is a housekeeping question
15 having nothing to do with Commissioners Scott and Mills so
16 I'm perfectly willing to wait as long as you don't forget
17 me before a vote is taken.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's wait and make a note and
19 make sure I recognize you when we are through.
20 Commissioner Barkdull, with what I outlined, if a
21 motion is made to that effect, would that meet the
22 commitment we made to the public that we are going to
23 consider each one of these?
24 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: In my view it would not,
25 Mr. Chairman. And all I can do, Commissioner Scott, is to
39
1 say I read what you say, I move that in lieu of a separate
2 motion on each issue submitted by the public --
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But he is changing that.
4 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, that was not what I
5 understood a few minutes ago.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Wait a minute, let me go back to
7 Commissioner Mills who made a suggestion, in effect, that
8 I think Commissioner Scott was agreeable with. He changed
9 that. He is not making it in the form of a motion to do
10 that.
11 Commissioner Mills, would you like to attempt to make
12 what would be the motion?
13 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Let me try one more time.
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's not what we agreed to
15 do.
16 COMMISSIONER MILLS: This is why it would be what we
17 agreed to do. It actually would be possible at this point
18 to accept the motion of the rules committee to go through
19 each article separately -- this is slightly different than
20 what you described.
21 But go ahead and start with Article I, go through
22 Article I, take up the Scott concepts in Article I, then
23 go through the Barkdull report in Article I by detail so
24 we would know what we did in Article I. And that means we
25 will have done everything.
40
1 We will have fulfilled the idea of trying to
2 organize, which is as I understand Senator Scott's
3 principal thrust, and we will have fulfilled our
4 commitment to the public specifically because we will go
5 through every single proposal in Article I at the same
6 time we try to organize it by concept. And I'm not sure
7 we even need a motion to do that. If you want one, I'll
8 be glad to make it.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans-Jones, you are
10 on the rules committee, does that -- what is your response
11 to that, or what they are suggesting now?
12 Which is, again, let me explain the way I understand
13 it. Let me see if we are all on the same page. We are
14 going to -- if we adopt the rules committee report, we
15 will then have a motion, or whatever, by Commissioner
16 Scott that will successively and he can do it one by one,
17 or somebody can, vote on the 11, on the concepts that he
18 has got in each one of his proposals.
19 And at that point, when we finish that, we will
20 revert to the consideration of all of the public
21 proposals. And what I was planning to do anyway was to
22 say, we are on Article I, declaration of rights. Does any
23 commissioner move a public proposal under that article?
24 And then Commissioner Connor could move the specific
25 one that he wants to move, or two, and we would take a
41
1 show of hands vote. Reminding you that when you vote to
2 consider these, it doesn't mean you are for them, it means
3 you are willing to have them considered.
4 Am I right on the way I am interpreting this,
5 Commissioner Scott? We could even do yours at the end,
6 but it would be simpler I think to do it in the beginning.
7 COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES: Mr. Chairman, it seems to
8 me that that would be an appropriate way to do it because
9 every commissioner would then have an opportunity to move
10 something within that specific article if he or she wants
11 to.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
13 Barkdull? Or, excuse me, Commissioner Smith, do you want
14 to speak first? Would you yield or --
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I yield to Commissioner
16 Smith.
17 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Well although we have taken an
18 hour and 23 minutes, I think this has been a very
19 important discussion we have had because this is the
20 people's constitution. As we all know, we made a
21 commitment to the public to consider every proposal and I
22 think now we have a way that we can consider all the
23 proposals.
24 The most important thing that I have heard is the
25 fact that we can aggregate the various proposals. Because
42
1 if I were a member of an organization that spent four or
2 five meetings trying to come up with a particular
3 proposal, and I got three minutes in Tampa to speak, and
4 the subject matter of those proposals was just, because it
5 got nine votes was just knocked out, I would really have a
6 serious problem with that.
7 Now I think with the discussion of the rules
8 committee and with the discussion of this process, I
9 really believe we have a procedure now where we can meet
10 our commitment to discuss every proposal and yet not have
11 to reject, for instance, the issue of merit selection
12 versus judges. Opt in or opt out, straight merit
13 selection, or election. I mean, we can have that
14 aggregate issue submitted to the Article V committee and
15 deal with it and everybody will understand that we have
16 considered those proposals.
17 And then we can work out the details with the
18 specifically-drafted rule or constitutional change, and
19 with that, I have really benefited from this discussion
20 and I think we can move forward now and keep our
21 commitments.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott?
23 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Talking with the secretary, so
24 that we are clear, we are now not into having committee
25 proposals as such. What we are saying is these subject
43
1 matters will be actual proposals that would go to the
2 committee as a concept and then will be dealt with as a
3 proposal.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct. It wouldn't be a
5 waiver of the rules, and it would go on the record this
6 way: You take each one of these, we will vote on each
7 one, you will be listed as the person who sponsored the
8 public proposal concept of, and then if you get 11 votes
9 on those, or if we get 11 votes on those, ten, it will go
10 forward in that fashion to the committee. And it will not
11 be a committee proposal when it comes out.
12 At the same time, when we go through the rest of
13 them, we will have specific proposals available on those
14 same concepts which will go to the committee. And they
15 will be considered and the public will, public proposal
16 will be considered as a public proposal as well.
17 So that that way, we get in a way -- I'm glad we had
18 this discussion, because what Commissioner Scott has done
19 is made sure we get all the concepts up there but we also
20 get the specific proposals up there, which is what is
21 troubling a lot of commissioners and which I think was
22 basically troubling Commissioner Barkdull. I'm not
23 overruling the chair of the rules committee. I trust that
24 maybe we have reached a point here where we are all happy
25 and willing to go have a cup of coffee.
44
1 Commissioner Alfonso?
2 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Do we need a motion to
3 proceed?
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think that's what we are trying
5 to do. Let me say what I would call for. First, I would
6 call for a vote to adopt the rules committee. Then I
7 would recognize Commissioner Scott as the first person and
8 he would go through his list one at a time and we will see
9 if they get ten votes.
10 When we finish that list, we will take up the
11 calendar and we will start with Article I, declaration of
12 rights, the ones that are listed there specifically, and
13 you will have an opportunity to move specific ones.
14 And if they get ten votes, they will go to committee.
15 And if I was voting, I can assure you that I would vote
16 for several of these specific ones even though I oppose
17 them because I think they should be considered and we had
18 public participation asking for them. And I think that's
19 what's troubling you; wasn't it, Commissioner Connor?
20 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I am going to ask you
22 to withdraw your amendment -- well, no, all right. I
23 guess before we vote, if we sort of have a consensus on
24 that, then I'll move to Commissioner Zack's and Freidin's
25 and Evans had one too she wanted that would be
45
1 housekeeping.
2 How do you want to proceed, Mr. Chairman?
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I want to know what
4 Commissioner Scott is going to do with his motion. Is he
5 going it withdraw it or is he going to leave it up for
6 consideration?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think we have an understanding
8 that he can withdraw it and bring it up after the report.
9 Is that agreeable to everybody?
10 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well it is my understanding that
11 we were going to go with it as a part of this report that
12 these items would be considered --
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We'll treat it however you want
14 to. Commissioner Mills, you made the definitive motion
15 here.
16 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, as I understand,
17 he can withdraw his motion to amend and as we go through
18 the report, which is to take up Article I, in Article I we
19 can take up Commissioner Scott's list.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I will do that if that is --
21 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I don't think you need to do
22 anything procedurally other than to vote for the report.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett.
24 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: This is a point of
25 clarification, Mr. Chairman. Let's assume we go through
46
1 the various proposals that have been submitted by the
2 public and they do not receive ten votes, does that mean
3 that, but the broad category, a broad category does, is
4 adopted by the commission, does that mean that those
5 proposals that received ten votes can be taken up by the
6 committee? I'm not talking about individual members
7 filing that, but by the committee, or are the committees
8 in that prohibited since it didn't receive the commission
9 votes?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: They are not prohibited, but the
11 committees can operate to come up with substitute
12 proposals from any one of these including the concept or
13 otherwise. But under the rules they cannot offer a
14 committee proposal. And to do otherwise would defeat our
15 open requirement, why these rules are so different.
16 So I would rule that if one of the concepts is
17 referred to the committee, that does not preclude
18 consideration of any specific language relating to that
19 concept, as by the committee. By the same token, any
20 specific language that's proposed as a public proposal
21 will be written as a proposal and will have to be
22 considered on the specific language.
23 Now I think that's the way it would operate,
24 Commissioner Barnett. And I believe that would be in
25 keeping with our commitment to the public.
47
1 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: The question really is what if
2 it is rejected by the commission, there is not enough --
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What, the concept?
4 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: The concept is rejected by the
5 commission.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It wouldn't prevent the
7 individuals from receiving 11 votes, the individual
8 proposals. Or a commissioner can get up and file --
9 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I'm not talking about a
10 commissioner filing it. And I'm assuming that the
11 category concept of merit retention is referred to
12 committee, the committee. What happens if specifics under
13 that have not received the ten votes, can the committee
14 then when they take it up, are they precluded then from
15 considering items that this commission, that have not
16 received sufficient votes in this commission and have not
17 been sponsored by a member?
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, they are not precluded from
19 considering anything in the whole world. It is kind of
20 like a judge wrote in a dissenting opinion one time, the
21 court would consider the Sears Roebuck catalog if it was
22 filed in a brief. And that's sort of the way committees
23 have to operate, as they do in the Legislature. Whatever
24 comes before that committee is going to be considered.
25 Commissioner Riley.
48
1 COMMISSIONER RILEY: Mr. Chairman, in reference to
2 Commissioner Barnett's question I would encourage
3 commissioners who make the initial proposal to include
4 within that motion the pro, cons and anything that has to
5 do with that issue. All within -- can they not do that?
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It would be out of order. You
7 can do that in committee. You just pass on the issue
8 that's before us. If you start pro and conning, you can
9 do that later before the committee.
10 COMMISSIONER RILEY: So if you have one issue that
11 has pros and cons within that article, you would have to
12 make two separate issues.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think everybody is
14 misunderstanding this. If we go through and do these
15 concepts -- all right, let's take this one, access to the
16 courts regardless of age, it gets ten votes. It is going
17 to be referred in that fashion to the committee. All
18 right.
19 Then you come over here and there is one that has
20 specific language even that does the same thing. It can
21 be sent as well. Or if that one loses, access to the
22 courts regardless of age, doesn't get ten votes, the
23 specific item, when we go through that, if it does get ten
24 votes, will go to the committee. If any commissioner
25 still wants to introduce it, they can do it before the
49
1 drop dead date and it will go to the committee.
2 So there is no way that I conceive, and I think this
3 is in keeping with Commissioner Scott's real proposal,
4 that we do in fact consider these. And then it meets
5 Commissioner Smith's very eloquent explanation that we are
6 going to take care of these people that came and gave us
7 these specific proposals by having the opportunity to move
8 them forward. Is that a fair summary, Commissioner Scott?
9 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: (Nods affirmatively.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
11 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, it appears that
12 we are on the motion of Commissioner Evans-Jones to
13 approve the report of the rules committee. There has been
14 a motion by Senator Scott, as I understand it, to amend
15 that.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He withdrew it.
17 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: The explanation -- has it
18 been withdrawn?
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes, sir.
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Then it is open for amendment
21 as proposed by Commissioner Freidin. And Commissioner
22 Evans has something she wants to propose probably, I don't
23 know what it is, but something relating to the report.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's get straight here. I don't
25 want us to get mixed up any more than we have. I sense
50
1 that we have a consensus, we are going to go with my last
2 explanation. I don't think we need a vote on that. The
3 rules committee stays where it is.
4 Then there is specific items that Commissioner Zack
5 had on a date, Commissioner Evans has something similar,
6 Commissioner Freidin has something similar. So now -- he
7 has withdrawn his motion and there will be no
8 double-crosses on this. I understand that. If there is
9 there will be guns fired from the rostrum.
10 (Laughter.)
11 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman --
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Have you got one too?
13 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: No, if I could state, and I
14 think we may save some time, that the rules committee will
15 accept, unless somebody indicates an objection here on the
16 floor, what has been suggested by Commissioner Zack that
17 we start at 9:00 rather than noon on that date. And if
18 that, no objection on that, and we change the deadline
19 date that Commissioner Freidin wants from the 6th to the
20 13th.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now we will hear from
22 Commissioner Evans.
23 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Now we will hear what
24 Commissioner Evans wants.
25 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay. My concern is the Sunday
51
1 meetings. And in particular, the one meeting that leads
2 into, that includes activities that lead into Holy Week.
3 And that's the March 29th probable meeting. My concern is
4 do I, if the committee votes, and there is some kind of
5 vote on that day, do I have to choose between my prior
6 commitment to the service to my church, and my commitment
7 to the state?
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'll tell you what, we are not
9 going to have any meetings on Easter.
10 COMMISSIONER EVANS: No, that's not Easter, that's
11 two weeks prior but it includes First Communion, which
12 leads into Holy Week.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't want to interfere with
14 anybody's religious activities. In fact, we originally
15 had something set that was in a High Holy holiday for the
16 Jewish religion and we changed that when it was called to
17 my attention by one of the commissioners who had to be
18 somewhere by 6:00 or whatever on Friday afternoon. And we
19 will accommodate the religious situation as it is raised.
20 And that is a probable that's listed on there and I can
21 tell you now that if just won't happen.
22 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay, thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott.
24 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: On that point, we discussed this
25 yesterday. The schedule of what we do regarding, for
52
1 example, public hearings, whether we have any or how many
2 and all of that is still subject to discussion and debate.
3 What we are doing here basically is fixing our schedule
4 for the next few months.
5 But I want to assure you that this still has on it,
6 for example, that we will meet the weekend that the
7 legislative session is over. And that's not going to
8 happen. The Senate president said that that's not going
9 to happen because the staff will be almost half dead by
10 then.
11 SECRETARY BLANTON: Maybe dead.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Actually the calendar from
13 January on is probable. Commissioner Barkdull.
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's a correct explanation
15 of it. It is not set in cement. It is just so people
16 have an opportunity to mark their calendars off and we
17 will work on the dates as we get closer to them.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment that you offered on
19 Commissioner Zack is that, or accepted, is that we meet on
20 October the 20th at 9:00 a.m., we convene here. And we
21 will end at the close of business on October 23rd, or
22 whenever we end that week; is that right?
23 COMMISSIONER ZACK: That's correct.
24 Mr. Chairman, I'd like to conform the rest of the
25 schedule to the same kind of principles we just talked
53
1 about where we come in the night before. What you have us
2 doing is starting at 1:00 and ending at 1:00 and turning
3 into a three-day meeting what could easily be a two-day
4 meeting, if we started at 9:00 a.m., come in the night
5 before, work late that night and then finish late if
6 necessary the second day. And I think that would resolve
7 many issues for many people in this chamber and still
8 allow us to do the work effectively.
9 And what I mean specifically is we come in the night
10 of the 11th, start at 9:00 a.m. on the 12th, work late on
11 the 12th, and finish on the 13th.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The simple way to handle that,
13 those are committee meetings. And the session meeting
14 will be on the 13th and 14th. So I think we could safely
15 say that the committee meetings could be at the call of
16 the chair of the committee on that date.
17 COMMISSIONER ZACK: So these can be changed by the
18 committee without this group taking action.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Correct.
20 COMMISSIONER ZACK: And you raise a good point
21 because we have two groups of committees. And if we are
22 going to have both of them meeting on the same day, they
23 are going to have to meet in the morning and the afternoon
24 in order probably to accomplish that. So with that
25 amendment -- it's part of your amendment; is that correct?
54
1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'll accept that we come in
2 at 9:00 as he indicates, but I don't want to cut a day off
3 at this time. If we happen to get through, fine, but I
4 don't want to cut the days off because --
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This wouldn't because there is a
6 commission meeting scheduled the next morning and the next
7 day.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I understand what you are
9 saying, Mr. Chairman, but I want the commissioners to
10 understand that we have got to spend some time on these
11 items and we need to have your calendars blocked out
12 because we might not get through. And I don't mind coming
13 earlier or any day, but I don't want to take a day off the
14 back at this point.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: One thing about it, we can change
16 the next meeting with a two thirds vote if we want to.
17 Now where are we?
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Evans-Jones' motion to
19 approve the report as amended.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor say aye.
21 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Opposed?
23 (No response.)
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now senator --
25 excuse me, I'm going to make you a commissioner yet,
55
1 Commissioner Mathis.
2 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: I have one clarification about
3 the calendar that's just a matter of housekeeping.
4 Although Commissioner Henderson might want us to think
5 that the FAMU-Bethune Cookman game is in Daytona Beach, it
6 is not, it is in Orlando, Florida.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And Disney is helping out I read
8 somewhere, too. That's going to be a great weekend for
9 people in Orlando. All right. I'm ready to get going
10 here if everybody else is.
11 Commissioner Nabors, not on the same subject I hope.
12 COMMISSIONER NABORS: Bear with me one second, I'm a
13 little slow. I want to make sure I understand, I'm very
14 comfortable with where we are, but let me give you an
15 example. Let's say that Mr. Scott, the access to the
16 courts regardless of age is presented and gets 20 votes,
17 and then there is no individual member proposal on that
18 and no specific proposal moved, that means that concept
19 will be drafted as a concept by staff and working that
20 committee; is that right?
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We will work that out, but that's
22 basically correct. And then we will see what specific
23 proposals get the necessary votes, too. Because that will
24 enter into what we need to draft. Is that the way you see
25 it, Commissioner Scott? That's what you are trying to
56
1 accomplish is make sure we get the concept and form in
2 there.
3 And I think this is something we can handle,
4 Commissioner Nabors. If anybody has suggestions after it
5 is done we can handle that, too. You can also introduce
6 one, Commissioner Nabors.
7 All right. Let's get going. I guess the first thing
8 we are going to do under that, accepting that report,
9 would be to take up each item that has been offered. Now
10 I can do this one of two ways, tell me your wish. We can
11 go through Article I, and go through that list and then I
12 can revert to Article I that's in the calendar. And we
13 will conclude with Article I and go through it orderly in
14 that manner. All right.
15 So we are going to start off with the first Article
16 I, declaration of rights. And Commissioner Scott moves
17 for the public concept of access to the courts regardless
18 of age. All right. All that want to refer that or move
19 it forward, raise your hand.
20 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It receives a sufficient number
22 of votes, it will move forward.
23 Equality based on gender, age or sexual preference.
24 All that want to send that concept forward raise your
25 hand.
57
1 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It receives enough votes.
3 Right of privacy versus parental authority. All that
4 want to send that concept forward, raise your hand.
5 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Barely, it does carry forward.
7 The affirmative action, the general subject of affirmative
8 action.
9 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does.
11 Decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court relating to the
12 fourth amendment.
13 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It goes forward.
15 Limitations on forfeiture of property.
16 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It goes forward.
18 Private property rights.
19 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It goes forward. Now, we will
21 revert here to the calendars, it is probably the easiest.
22 You can work off of both if you want a little more detail,
23 but we can work off the calendar because it is easier to
24 use I think. Does everybody have that? Okay. It is on
25 your desk.
58
1 We will start with Article I and we can do it one of
2 two ways. I can say does any member move I-2-1?
3 (No response.)
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does any member move I-2-1a?
5 (No response.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does any member want to move to
7 include the protection of the unborn? Any member can
8 introduce this even if it doesn't get the vote. It does
9 not get the vote on this particular item.
10 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: May I be recognized?
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Certainly.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Mr. Chairman, that's not the
13 way I understood it. It was understood that Commissioner
14 Connor was going to, was going to sponsor it and now if
15 you would call for the ten supporting votes.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He did sponsor it.
17 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I understand, but I didn't
18 raise my hand because --
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We will take another vote.
20 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Sir, Mr. Chairman, you only
21 asked who is going to sponsor it. Mr. Connor is
22 sponsoring it. Now may we vote for the ten supporting
23 votes?
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are going to move it, right?
25 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
59
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor moves it.
2 Now, all that are in favor of this going forward for
3 consideration, raise your hand.
4 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I have a question. Can we say
5 anything about it or not?
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well we have it under the report,
7 but we would have no debate. I don't want to cut anybody
8 off. I think the sponsor or the movant certainly could
9 have some, just short explanation of why he moved it --
10 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman --
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: -- without objection.
12 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir. If it would be
13 helpful I am prepared to move a group of proposals that I
14 would put under the rubric of sanctity of life matters for
15 consideration. That would range from abortion to
16 euthanasia, if that would be helpful.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think it might not be helpful
18 at this point because you can introduce those at any time
19 and they don't need ten votes. Now we are going to vote
20 one more time on Commissioner Connor's proposal that the
21 public include protection of the unborn be considered and
22 moved forward to the committee. All those in favor of
23 moving that forward, raise your hand.
24 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'll be ten.
60
1 Protect life from conception through natural death,
2 I-2-1c. That's sort of the same. You move it,
3 Commissioner Evans moves it. All in favor of moving that
4 forward in that form, raise your hand.
5 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It fails. Not that it fails, she
7 could still introduce it.
8 Add provision to Article I, Section 2, as follows:
9 "The rights of persons under 18 years of age shall
10 include, but not be limited to, all the fundamental rights
11 of this article unless specifically precluded by laws
12 which enhance the protection of such persons." I-2-2,
13 does anybody move that?
14 (No response.)
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right, we will move on.
16 I-2-3, amend Article I, Section 2, to read, "No person
17 shall be deprived of any right because of race, religion,
18 gender, sexual orientation or physical handicap."
19 You move it? Commissioner Riley moves it. I do have
20 a reading clerk who is better than me. All in favor of
21 moving that forward as moved by Commissioner Riley, raise
22 your hand. That's I-2-3. Everybody raise your hand
23 again, let me see what we have got here.
24 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It passes, it goes forward.
61
1 Commissioner Scott.
2 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I thought, and
3 members here agree with me, that we were not going to go
4 through and read out every single proposal, but rather we
5 would ask under Article I, section whatever, does any --
6 is there any proposal that a commissioner wishes to move.
7 And that's what, my understanding of what our procedure
8 was going to be. Am I right about that, Judge?
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I was going to do that until we
10 got this concept amendment.
11 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's my understanding but I
12 think the Chair changed my mind earlier on in the
13 discussions.
14 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well I would --
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We can get through this in just a
16 minute.
17 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Yeah, but I think the idea was
18 we would have these concepts and then ask if any member
19 wishes to move any one of these and not put out every
20 single one and have them specifically rejected, which is
21 Commissioner Smith's point. So I would urge that the
22 procedure be that we ask if there is any commissioner who
23 wishes to move any item under Article I, section whatever.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I'm going to go
25 forward, in the absence of being overruled, with the way
62
1 we are doing it, because I don't think that failure to
2 receive the ten votes precludes it from being considered
3 under the concept anyway.
4 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Mr. Chairman, I have a point of
5 information.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Zack.
7 COMMISSIONER ZACK: I am thoroughly confused at this
8 time, and maybe I am the only one. But the right of
9 privacy versus parental authority, which is what we
10 adopted as a overall discussion area, I thought included,
11 for example, what Mr. Connor specifically moved. So it
12 seems to me like we are just undoing precisely what we
13 thought we were doing. Am I missing something?
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yeah, I think you are missing the
15 point that some commissioners don't feel that way and they
16 want to make these specifically.
17 COMMISSIONER ZACK: I'm not sure, Mr. Chairman, that,
18 for example, Mr. Connor -- and I may ask Mr. Connor the
19 question, if I might. Do you feel it is necessary to make
20 a specific motion as to I-2-2 now that the general matter
21 which is contained under right of privacy versus parental
22 authority has been adopted by the group?
23 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I did, which is why I moved it
24 because of my concern about the scope within which it
25 would be interpreted. And it is why, in the interest of
63
1 economizing our time, I had suggested that I be permitted
2 to move a group, which may or may not survive the ten
3 person vote, but which would be without prejudice, as I
4 understand it, to file an individual proposal. But I
5 thought in moving -- if I had understood the intent of the
6 Chair to go through this, I thought by aggregating
7 proposals --
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The point is well-taken,
9 Commissioner Zack, Commissioner Scott, Commissioner
10 Everybody Else. You-all have an opportunity to move any
11 of these. And what I'm going to do, rather than go
12 through each one, is say, under Article I, declaration of
13 rights, you have reviewed or have the opportunity to
14 review the specific proposals offered by the public. Does
15 anyone move under Article I, Section 2, any of the
16 proposals? Now I'll give you time to look at those
17 proposals and any member may move any one of them. We
18 won't go through them one at a time. I was going to use
19 my reading clerk.
20 We have had the two so we don't have to worry about
21 that. Do you move one, Commissioner Langley?
22 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: No, Mr. Chairman, but I think
23 there should be an announcement by the Chair that you feel
24 this is already included so we are not per se rejecting
25 these.
64
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't think we are rejecting
2 anything.
3 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: But we are saying that they
4 are not moving because they are already included in what
5 we did.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't think that the failure to
7 move these amounts to a rejection of the item that is not
8 moved. But to make sure that it is considered in the form
9 that it is listed here, you have got to move it. Is that
10 clear? You get a specific proposal drafted which will go
11 to the committee, and if you want it in this specific
12 form, which is what Commissioner Connor was making sure
13 that he had, then, fine. But you need to pick them out
14 one at a time and move them, if you want to.
15 Now that's pretty clear.
16 We got through I-2-3. So we are starting with I-2-3a
17 and going through I-2-9. If anyone wants to move any one
18 of those, we do them one at a time now. Any one of those,
19 move them. Commissioner Sundberg.
20 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.
21 Have you passed over I-2-7?
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No. We haven't passed over
23 anything in Article I other than we have passed over I --
24 everything between I-2-1 and I-2-3. We are now on I-2-3a
25 through I-2-9. And anybody can move any one of those.
65
1 Commissioner Freidin.
2 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Mr. Chairman, I move I-2-3a.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I-2-3a has been membered. Would
4 you read that, Reading Clerk?
5 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 2-3a, "Amend
6 Article I, Section 2, to read: No person shall be
7 deprived of any right because of race, religion, gender,
8 or physical handicap."
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now everybody that's
10 in favor of moving that forward, which adds the word
11 "gender" to that provision as it exists today, raise your
12 hand.
13 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is moved forward.
15 All right. Anybody want to move one, any other of
16 the items between I-2-3b through I-2-9?
17 Commissioner Freidin.
18 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to move
19 I-2-3b.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Move I-2-3b. Read please.
21 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 2-3b, "Amend
22 Article I, Section 2, striking the word 'handicap' and
23 substituting the word 'disability' to conform with the
24 Americans with Disabilities Act."
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Everybody in favor of that, raise
66
1 your hand, moving it forward.
2 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It passed, goes.
4 All right, Commissioner Sundberg.
5 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Mr. Chairman, unless there is
6 a ruling of the Chair that it has already been included
7 within the concept of affirmative action, I would like to
8 move I-2-7.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Sundberg
10 has moved I-2-7, read.
11 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 2-7, "Add the
12 following: The citizens of the state of Florida shall
13 enjoy equal opportunity to employment, housing, public
14 accommodations, public education --"
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You can dispense with the
16 reading. Is everybody familiar with that one? All in
17 favor, raise your hand.
18 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. It passes. Alternates
20 can't vote. Okay. Does anybody move any of the other
21 items under Article I-2?
22 Commissioner Zack.
23 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Yes, I'd like to move
24 specifically I-2-1, which I think ought to be incorporated
25 in access to courts regardless of age, but in view of the
67
1 procedure that we are going to follow, I'll specifically
2 move that matter.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of I -- read it.
4 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 2-1, "Amend
5 Article I, Section 2, in pertinent part to read: No
6 person shall be deprived of any right because of race,
7 religion, age or physical handicap."
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor, raise your hand.
9 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It goes forward. Any more under
11 I-2, under Article I?
12 (No response.)
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now we move to Article I, Section
14 3. Read the article -- no, does anybody move any of
15 those? Have time to look them over.
16 Commissioner Evans.
17 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I move Article
18 I-3-1.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner Evans --
20 read please.
21 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 3-1, "Add to
22 Article I, Section 3, the compelling state interest test.
23 That is, laws affecting the free exercise clause should be
24 subject to strict scrutiny."
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that
68
1 forward, raise your hand.
2 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does not pass. Do you have
4 another one?
5 Commissioner Evans.
6 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I move Article I,
7 Section 3-2.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Article I, Section 3-2, read.
9 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 3-2, "Modify the
10 language in Article I, Section 3, regarding 'indirect aid
11 to sectarian institutions' to ensure that the provision is
12 not interpreted to prevent students in parochial schools
13 from receiving neutral benefits."
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor, raise your hand if
15 you want to move it forward.
16 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does not move. Any more? Any
18 more under Article I-3?
19 (No response.)
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I want to wait and make sure
21 everybody has read it.
22 Are we ready to move? Move to Article I, Section 4.
23 (Pause.)
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody want to move either one
25 of those two public proposals?
69
1 (No response.)
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The train has left.
3 Article I, Section 5. Does anyone move Article I
4 Section 5?
5 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: So moved.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is moved by Commissioners
7 Connor and Riley. Read.
8 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 5-1, "Amend
9 Article I, Section 5, to read: Rights to assemble and
10 associate. The people shall have the right peaceably to
11 assemble --"
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's all right. I think
13 everyone has read that. You know what we are voting on.
14 If you are for moving that forward, raise your hand.
15 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's vote again. Everybody get
17 their hands up. We are right on the border here.
18 It does go forward.
19 All right, Article I, Section 6. Let's study those
20 for just a few minutes.
21 (Pause.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We are ready to
23 proceed under Section 6. Does anybody move any of these?
24 Commissioner Riley.
25 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I move Article I, Section 6-2.
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1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read Article I, Section 6-2.
2 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 6-2, "All
3 Floridians shall have the right to join labor unions and
4 to bargain collectively. It shall be a felony to coerce,
5 intimidate or threaten employees because of union advocacy
6 or membership."
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that
8 forward, raise your hand.
9 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does not go forward. Are
11 there any others under Article I, Section 6?
12 (No response.)
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody move any under Article I,
14 Section 6? Okay.
15 If not, we will move to Section 8. That one is
16 pretty short. Anybody move Section 8?
17 (No response.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right, we will move on.
19 Article I, Section 9.
20 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I'll move --
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Sundberg.
22 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: -- I would like to move
23 Article I-9-1 for that proposal.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Read please.
25 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 9-1, "Amend
71
1 Article I, Section 9, to read: No person shall be
2 deprived of life, liberty or property without due process
3 of law, or be twice put in jeopardy for the same offense
4 or be compelled in any criminal matter to be a witness
5 against himself. Private property may be forfeited only
6 after felony conviction of, and exhaustion of appeals by,
7 the property owner."
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
9 moving that forward, raise your hand.
10 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It moves forward.
12 Article I, Section 12. Anybody move Article I
13 Section 12?
14 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I move proposal I-12-1.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that one,
16 raise your hand.
17 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It fails.
19 Article I, Section 15. This one includes the death
20 penalty. All right. Does anyone move anything under
21 Article I, Section 15? Hearing none -- oh, Commissioner
22 Barnett.
23 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I move I-15-a-1b.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read please.
25 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 15-a-1b, "Add
72
1 language to protect against the death penalty being
2 imposed arbitrarily and capriciously. Imposition of the
3 death penalty should require a unanimous jury
4 recommendation for death."
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
6 moving that forward, raise your hand.
7 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It moves forward. Any others
9 under that section, Section 15?
10 (No response.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Section 16.
12 (No response.)
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Section 17, anybody move Article
14 I, Section 17?
15 (No response.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Section 18, anybody move Section
17 18?
18 Commissioner Langley moves Section I-18-1. All in
19 favor of moving that forward, raise your hand.
20 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay, it moves forward. That's
22 one that probably wasn't covered under the concept, too.
23 Okay. I didn't let him read that time, but it was short.
24 I-19-1 -- yeah, go ahead and read it so it will be in
25 the record.
73
1 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 18-1, "Amend
2 Article I, Section 18, to read: "No administrative
3 agency, except the Department of Military Affairs in an
4 appropriately convened court-martial action, shall impose
5 a sentence of imprisonment, nor shall it impose any other
6 penalty except as provided by law."
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Section 19, Article I.
8 Commissioners Riley and Connor move. Which one? Which
9 one are you moving?
10 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I-19-1.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Read please.
12 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 19-1, "Amend
13 Article I, Section 19 to read: "No person charged with a
14 crime shall be compelled to pay costs before a judgment of
15 conviction has become final. A person not found guilty of
16 a crime shall not be assessed fees or costs to recover
17 property seized as evidence or otherwise held, impounded
18 or stored by the government."
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that one
20 forward, raise your hand.
21 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It moves forward.
23 Any more under Article I, Section 19?
24 (No response.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right, Article I, Section 21.
74
1 Commissioner Freidin moves. Read please.
2 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: Article I-21-1.
3 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 21-1, "Amend
4 Article I, Section 21 to read: The courts shall be open
5 to every person for redress of any injury, without regard
6 to the age of the litigants, and justice shall be
7 administered without sale, denial or delay."
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
9 moving that forward, raise your hand.
10 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It moves forward.
12 Article I, we are still there, on Article I, Section
13 21. There are two others. Does anybody move either of
14 them?
15 (No response.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Article I, Section 22.
17 Commissioner Rundle.
18 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: I'd like to move I-22-7.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read it.
20 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 22-7, "Add: A
21 putative father in a paternity suit does not have the
22 right to trial by jury."
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that
24 forward, raise your hand.
25 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
75
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We did get ten so it goes.
2 Any more under I, Section I-22?
3 Commissioner Freidin.
4 COMMISSIONER FREIDIN: I-22-2.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read please.
6 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 22-2, "Amend
7 Article I, Section 22, to read: The right of trial by
8 jury shall be secure to all and remain inviolate without
9 regard to the age of the litigants. The qualifications
10 and the number of jurors, not fewer than six, shall be
11 fixed by law."
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right, Commissioner Freidin
13 moved. All in favor of moving that forward, raise your
14 hand.
15 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does not move forward.
17 Any more under Section 22?
18 (No response.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Article I, Section 23. There is
20 a lot of these if you want to take a little more time.
21 Commissioner Zack.
22 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Move I-23-11.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Please read.
24 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 23-11, "Prohibit
25 the sale of personal data on individuals from databases
76
1 without written consent of the concerned individual."
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that
3 forward, raise your hand.
4 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It has it. Zack, you picked a
6 winner, Commissioner Zack.
7 COMMISSIONER ZACK: Mr. Chairman, thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody got any others under
9 I-23?
10 Commissioner Mathis.
11 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: I move I-23-2.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I-23-2, read please.
13 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 23-2, "The right
14 of privacy should not extend to the right to abortion."
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that
16 forward, raise your hand.
17 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Eight.
19 Any more under Article I, 23?
20 Commissioner West.
21 COMMISSIONER WEST: I would like to move I-23-3.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I-23-3, please read.
23 READING CLERK: Article 1, Section 23-3,
24 "Constitution should require parental consent for minors
25 to obtain an abortion."
77
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All those that want to move that
2 forward, raise your hand.
3 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Raise your hands again. I
5 thought I counted ten.
6 SECRETARY BLANTON: I get nine, three times.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I was wrong.
8 All right. Anybody want to move any of the others
9 under I-23?
10 Commissioner Morsani had his hand up and I'll get to
11 you next, Commissioner Evans. Commissioner Morsani.
12 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: Mr. Chairman, I-23-11a, and
13 maybe that was covered in I-23-11.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, we can go ahead and go
15 since it is a specific public proposal. Let's read it and
16 we will vote on it.
17 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 23-11a, "Expand
18 the privacy provision as it relates to information that
19 can be obtained from computers."
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor of moving that
21 forward, raise your hand.
22 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It goes forward.
24 Commissioner Evans was next.
25 COMMISSIONER EVANS: I move I-23-5a.
78
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Please read.
2 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 23-5a, "Include a
3 provision to affirm parental rights and responsibilities
4 to direct the upbringing of their own children."
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Oh, 5a, excuse me, all right.
6 Did I interrupt you or do you want to hear it again?
7 Include a provision to affirm parental rights and
8 responsibilities to direct the upbringing of their own
9 children. All that want to move that forward, raise your
10 hand.
11 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. It does not go forward.
13 Any more under I-23?
14 Commissioner Connor?
15 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: 1-23-5b, but I believe that
16 there is an error in the summary. I believe it should be
17 included but not limited to.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's probably correct. Read it
19 with that change in it, if you would, sir.
20 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 23-5b, "Restore
21 the right of parents to make decisions for their children,
22 including, but not limited to, abortions."
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think that's the way it was
24 presented. All those in -- yeah.
25 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: For the record, I for one want
79
1 to make the statement here that we adopted as general
2 categories on this one and several others, I don't mean to
3 just pick this one, that are covered in what we first
4 adopted. And so I for one do not consider it necessary to
5 re-adopt it. I just think that point should be made if we
6 are going to go through this.
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I'll accept that.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think that's been made and
9 people still want to introduce them. And I think that's
10 fine. They have a right to.
11 Anybody else under I-23? Any other proposals under
12 I-23?
13 Commissioner Connor. Commissioner Evans-Jones,
14 you'll be next.
15 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, I believe that --
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We need to vote on that.
17 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I withdrew it in view of the
18 statement.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans-Jones -- oh,
20 do you want to make another one?
21 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Go ahead.
23 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to move
24 I-23-1, which was the proposal, you may recall, by
25 Mr. Horkin in Gainesville, although I believe, frankly,
80
1 that that summary is not a quite fair summary. I think it
2 probably could more fairly be summarized to say that
3 Mr. Horkin favored a provision which would bar Florida
4 courts from construing -- or which would require Florida
5 courts to construe the privacy provision in conformity
6 with the privacy decisions of the United States Supreme
7 Court. I think that's probably a more fair summary of
8 what he had proposed.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Do you move that as you have --
10 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I move it.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: -- as you have revised it? Did
12 you get the revision?
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: It is his proposal, I don't
14 care how it is summarized, I just wanted to add that.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. You weren't revising it.
16 All in favor -- do you want to vote on that? Everybody
17 that wants to move that forward, please raise your hand.
18 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. It doesn't go forward
20 in that form.
21 Any more under I-23? Commissioner Evans-Jones.
22 COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES: I-23-4.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Please read.
24 READING CLERK: Article I, Section 23-4, "Require
25 parental consent for minors in all medical procedures."
81
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
2 moving that forward, raise your hand.
3 (Whereupon, the vote was taken.)
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does not go forward. Any more
5 under I-23?
6 (No response.)
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We will move to I-24
8 and give you a few minutes to read -- well, it is just
9 two, three -- two. Anybody move either one of those?
10 (No response.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. We will move forward to
12 I-25. Well we had better find out what Article I, Section
13 25, is since somebody wants to repeal it. I'm sure
14 Commissioner Barkdull can recite it off the top of his
15 head. Does anybody know what it is without looking it up?
16 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: Taxpayer bill of rights.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Taxpayer bill of rights. There
18 is a proposal that it should be repealed or add something
19 to it.
20 After the hearings in Washington, though, I don't
21 know if it would do any good to add anything to it or not.
22 Let's move on to Article I, Section --
23 SECRETARY BLANTON: No section.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: -- no section. These are ones
25 that aren't in a section. These are proposals that would
82
1 fit in Article I. Take a minute and read them.
2 Incidentally, while you are reading it, we are going
3 to have lunch brought in and we are going to eat at 12:30.
4 We will eat in the back in the lounge back here.
5 These are some weighty ones here. These don't have
6 an assigned section.
7 Commissioner Barnett.
8 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Commissioner Kogan had just
9 suggested that I do I-10, but we were discussing the
10 merits of it and you passed it by before I had a chance.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Certainly you qualify as a
12 subject we would all like to visit there, along with
13 Justice Kogan at the other end of the beach.
14 (Laughter.)
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley?
16 I'm teasing, Martha.
17 COMMISSIONER RILEY: I sincerely hope so,
18 Mr. Chairman.
19 I'd like to move forward I-x-3.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I-x-3, would you read, please?
21 READING CLERK: Article I-x-3, "Create a Bill of
22 Rights for Children. Replace the concept that keeping the
23 family together is the best policy, notwithstanding the
24 family's dysfunction."
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Everybody that wants
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